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No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

theguardian.com

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Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#121

This is a child being disrespectful on a monumental level, not outsmarting anyone. It also sounds like her parents are paying a great deal of attention. She may also be a classic psychopath. http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/sociopath-psyc...

Any internet comment that ends in "psychopath" is probably a bad one—this pattern is a Godwin mini-me—and to get there from one colorful anecdote of adolescent cleverness is a particular stretch.

Please don't practice unsolicited psychiatry on HN.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12032277 and marked it off-topic.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#122
It depends on perspective. Getting education or acquiring skills or better network is ol'good combination of carrot and stick anyway. Those instruments just happily passed from teachers to students themselves. Time will tell who is using these precious things more wise.

Full disclosure - I am big fun of didactics in delivering knowledge, since only implying of proper level of didactical pressure makes the right chemical background for application of nootropics.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#123
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also worked a fair amount with "alternative" educational structures, albeit in a different country (France). In those kind of pedagogies (mostly Freinet for me), the adults ultimately do have a veto power. However, when you give kids responsibility, something funny happens - you find that they tend to become very reasonable, and you very rarely have to use veto power. More often than not, it's more renegotiation…

How do you deal with the students who outsmart teachers? A lack of rule sets would seem an open field for students to manipulate the adults in the room. One of my friend's daughters is vicious at this. At 14, for a "career and personal planning" project, she stated career her goal as "porn star" and somehow wrangled a skype interview with a 19yo "mentor" in the biz. She has no intention on following this path, but lo…

I say the girl should be congratulated for her ingenuity. The amount of effort she put into tweaking the teacher's tail is commendable. The real "solution" here is for her to find a mentor who will channel her efforts into more projects that make people think as well as shock them. Sometimes this is risky for the teacher, but god knows we need more critical thinkers.

When I was 14, more than half a century ago, I got into trouble for holding opinions that the people her would consider merely progressive. One of my daughters in high school got into insulting her peer group by using a vocabulary they didnt understand. They thought she was praising them. She is now in her thirties and very well adjusted. If she had done such a thing in middle school, I would have been very amused, but her mother would have been absolutely mortified. Probably best that she didnt.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#124
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also worked a fair amount with "alternative" educational structures, albeit in a different country (France). In those kind of pedagogies (mostly Freinet for me), the adults ultimately do have a veto power. However, when you give kids responsibility, something funny happens - you find that they tend to become very reasonable, and you very rarely have to use veto power. More often than not, it's more renegotiation…

How do you deal with the students who outsmart teachers? A lack of rule sets would seem an open field for students to manipulate the adults in the room. One of my friend's daughters is vicious at this. At 14, for a "career and personal planning" project, she stated career her goal as "porn star" and somehow wrangled a skype interview with a 19yo "mentor" in the biz. She has no intention on following this path, but lo…

You said yourself, she's doing all that precisely because it annoys the teachers. She wouldn't get anything out of it if they weren't trying to stop her.

Moreover, she probably gets social encouragement from her classmates for doing things like this. Put her in an environment where the classmates made the rules, and now she's just a clown surrounded by people rolling their eyes.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#125

We school-educated people associate learning with authority and it's hard for us to truly grasp that education takes place most efficiently under conditions of freedom. Repealing Hitler's 1938 law against home education would be an important step for Germany.

Hitler didn't forbid home schooling, that hasn't been allowed in the Weimar Republic either and before that it wasn't allowed for centuries in some parts of Germany.

There is also no relevant political party in Germany that is pro-home schooling. In fact some would argue we would need to expand the Schulpflicht and make it mandatory for children to go the Kindergarten.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#126
post #49

Sudbury Valley Schools are the gold standard as far as I can tell from my research. (I spent a number of years as an education/students rights activist; built and ran the country's most famous education blog back in 2009; and have otherwise been doing advocacy work for a couple decades) They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens who understand how to share limited resources and…

Thanks for the link, thanks for your efforts. I'll definitely read up on sudval.org. "They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens..." Word. I've run democratic teams. The empowerment is real. I can't explain it; it feels like magic. Those experiences have transmuted me into a full throated advocate for democracy. Democracy, in its multitude of forms, is very much a technology. Ju…

> I wonder why learning can't be more like that?

Money. There isn't enough of it. America would rather spend it on other "more important" things.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#127
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unschooler here. I am the only unschooler from my 12 person cohort of hippie parents who did not go to University. And I am doing okay. So I think school basically has no effect. Mostly just daycare. It is good at that, though.

Sounds like your cohort was great. There was an "unschooled" girl in my college friend group who was failing remedial math and science classes in her third year. She never wanted to learn basic mathematics (we're talking long division here), so she never did, and she did not understand how to motivate herself to learn about something she wasn't already interested in. She didn't end up graduating despite the small, pr…

The flipped perspective is that she's clearly a talented, competent person who can succeed—the fact that she didn't says more about how the school system defines success than it does about her. Hell, who's more likely to end up doing something great: her or somebody who fills out the minimum requirements exactly but nothing more? Even if they manage to learn long division and she doesn't?

Besides, it's not like many of the people who did manage to pass their math classes actually learned it all that well. I bet if you took random adults and asked them to solve long division problems, a sizable fraction wouldn't be able to do it. They just figured out how to put in enough work to jump through the right hoops and get out of the school system.

Personally I'd much rather have an education system flexible enough to motivate and engage students like her (even if that means skimping on basic math) than systems which try to force everyone down the same path regardless of how well it fits them.

To be clear, I absolutely think math is important. If anything, I think mathematical thinking is one of the most important skills you can learn. (Not that high school math is any good at actually imparting it.) And I even think I presented a false dichotomy above: you don't have to skimp on math to motivate students not interested in it, you could also just do a better job teaching. (But that's hard, of course!) If that was the choice, though, I'd rather not worry about a minimum amount of math, especially for students who clearly have lots of other things going for them.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#128
post #49

Sudbury Valley Schools are the gold standard as far as I can tell from my research. (I spent a number of years as an education/students rights activist; built and ran the country's most famous education blog back in 2009; and have otherwise been doing advocacy work for a couple decades) They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens who understand how to share limited resources and…

Thanks for the link, thanks for your efforts. I'll definitely read up on sudval.org. "They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens..." Word. I've run democratic teams. The empowerment is real. I can't explain it; it feels like magic. Those experiences have transmuted me into a full throated advocate for democracy. Democracy, in its multitude of forms, is very much a technology. Ju…

> Those experiences have transmuted me into a full throated advocate for democracy.

And if a majority of wolves vote for a sheep dinner?

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if students (or whoever in a power sharing dynamic) are making decisions that are bad for them? How do you veto a bad decision?

I work at Arts&Ideas Sudbury School in Baltimore, 8 years old at this point. I have been with them for two years. There is no veto. There is simply discussing the issue and revisiting it if necessary. While it is always possible that a disastrous decision will be made, anecdotally, it seems to be exceedingly rare. Students want the school to succeed. They want to be safe and respected. When you start from those place…

You wrote a very beautiful post and created value (at least for me). Thanks for taking the time to write this. It was thought provoking.

(I've been reading HN for years. I know agreeing or appreciating something is handled via upvoting. Sometimes it's just not enough and a human connection is more important than the HN guidelines).

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading that when you compare the development of a child that went to a regular school vs. Montessori the results are the same.

Something in Freakanomics kids with parents that care enough about their education, did "better" regardless of being selected for in the charter school lottery. Wonder if that is correlated.

That.

Kids at special schools, and even some 'home schooled' kids - have parents who obviously care a lot about their kids education. Compare that to parents who don't care at all - or worse - are toxic.

I suggest having a 'positive and balanced home life' with parents who take an active interest in their child's life is 2x as important as the school they go to.

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