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No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

theguardian.com

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Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#51

Post by corysama »

centizen wrote: post #33
chrisper wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a Montessori Kindergarten as a child. I think it was good, but I do not remember much anymore. I remember all the toys and other things that taught me reading, counting, fine motor skills etc.

If you think it was good, it probably was - all I remember about traditional kindergarten was hating it.

I was so bored in kindergarten that I barely participated at all. When it was over, the teachers thought I must be slow so I should be held back and do it all again. Thankfully my mother knew it was because I was bored out of my mind and fought to prevent that.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#52

Post by balls187 »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #23
bbayles wrote: post #13

My partner became involved in Montessori a few years ago, and I've been really impressed with how it works. If you don't know much about Montessori, here is my "in a nutshell" version: It's a method of schooling usually associated with preschool and elementary education. There are mixed age groups (e.g. 3 to 6) in classrooms. There is at least one adult who gives one-on-one lessons on how to work with "materials." Th…

I remember reading that when you compare the development of a child that went to a regular school vs. Montessori the results are the same.

Something in Freakanomics kids with parents that care enough about their education, did "better" regardless of being selected for in the charter school lottery.

Wonder if that is correlated.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#53

Post by maus42 »

bbayles wrote: post #18
tamana wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Montessori is really serious about this; materials are not allowed to be broken or chipped or worn This is a traditional pseudoscientific gimmick to drive sales revenue. In the real world, children are enticed by non-new and broken things just fine... until their parents, competitive peers, TV, or lovers insist they be more materialistic and wealthy signalling.

Citation needed? I'm just describing the Montessori method, which was developed in the early 1900s. But maybe they were driving "sales revenue" then also?

Well, the early 1900s wasn't exactly an utopian golden age where people were not interested about stuff like sales revenue.

Do especially 'beautiful' items really entice children better compared to, well, maybe bit worn but in good condition and definitely not broken or dirty items, or utilitarian mechanical things that are in prime condition but designed the function, not looks, in mind?

I mean, many children are absolutely enticed by garbage trucks and tractors and stuff like that.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#54

Post by clentaminator »

nibs wrote: post #46
clentaminator wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you know what you don't know, though? Or what you never experienced or could have experienced? Genuine question, just curious how anyone firmly on the "schooler" or "unschooler" side of the fence can know without some kind of external reference, particularly one which they themselves didn't choose in case of bias.

The assumption is that if there is something you need to know and you encounter a situation that requires it, you can learn it. And if it turns out you do not need it, you saved the time. Further, formal instruction only works for some types of people, albeit probably most. Synthesis from learning when you are interested tends to be more useful than memorization. The experienced part is the scary one, although in ter…

> and you encounter a situation that requires it, you can learn it

Which is perfectly fine as long as you know what that "it" is, which assumes a base-level familiarity with subject X.

The problem cases I can imagine are ones where you don't have the base familiarity, or in other words the cases where you don't know what you don't know (as opposed to knowing what you don't know and where to look for the answers).

This is the case that I see leading towards the so-called "expert beginner" stage of understanding.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#55

Post by ionforce »

ada1981 wrote: post #49

Sudbury Valley Schools are the gold standard as far as I can tell from my research. (I spent a number of years as an education/students rights activist; built and ran the country's most famous education blog back in 2009; and have otherwise been doing advocacy work for a couple decades) They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens who understand how to share limited resources and…

What if students (or whoever in a power sharing dynamic) are making decisions that are bad for them? How do you veto a bad decision?

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#56

Post by FeepingCreature »

tamana wrote: post #22
FeepingCreature wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'd like to see is a completely opt-in curriculum with introductory classes and transparent requirements. Simultaneous dense "civil education" class focusing on the specific applications of fields to everyday life. Teachers would only have interested students by definition, so they could offer more in-depth classes. I wish somebody would try it. Nobody needs to know sines and cosines, and somebody who doesn't ca…

The problem with completely opt-in is that kids dont know what they'll like until they try it, and if they can opt out of anything difficult, many will learn almost nothing.

> don't know what they'll like until they try it

The intro classes are mandatory. (They're also short.)

> if they can opt out of anything difficult, many will learn almost nothing.

I'm not convinced they learn anything long-term as it stands. Do you have data on this?

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#57

Post by rwallace »

vinceguidry wrote: post #32

Education is extremely political. It's not that we can't come up with better ways of occupying school-age children. Montessori has been around since the early 1900s! The problem is convincing everyone they need to adopt a new method. Which is absolutely completely politically impossible compared to making small tweaks to the system already present. Nobody is going to turn education upside down. Ever.

Then again, ever is a long time and what is impossible on one timescale becomes possible on another. If modern society does not succeed in drastically reforming the education system with which it has ended up, it will die off and be replaced by a different kind of society, so either way, education will indeed be turned upside down; the open questions are just the when and how.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#58

Post by balls187 »

rayiner wrote: post #35
nickpsecurity wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the real world, children are enticed by non-new and broken things just fine... until their parents, competitive peers, TV, or lovers insist they be more materialistic and wealthy signalling." Tamana is describing a behavior known to anyone who have ever watched children play or explore the world. They start out interested in all kinds of stuff regardless if it's shiny or in perfect condition. Later, after much cu…

Do you have kids? My toddler won't even eat a cookie that has a corner broken off.

Do you ensure your toddler gets perfect cookies, or do you wait it out until she relents?

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#59

Post by ionforce »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #27

Every time I come home from a mind-numbing eight-hour Scrum meeting, I feel frustrated for having accomplished absolutely nothing. Then I realise that this is what school was like, every single day. I'm sure some people prefer to be force-fed instead of learning on their own, but self-organised schools as in the OP should at least be an option for people who know what they want.

Why are you allowing this eight-hour meeting to happen? Where is your feedback mechanism?
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