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Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

theatlantic.com

171–180 of 227 posts

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#171
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to look at "Churches of the past" a little harder. Churches had their time and while we haven't managed to get rid of them yet, we are a lot better of with a separation between them and the state.

What about outside the US, where there is no seperation of Church and State?

The church and state are better separated in many places outside the US. I'm in New Zealand.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#172

In my opinion this is the inevitable political crisis that unrestrained neoliberalism has lead us to. [ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/witnes... ] I'd say this is the end of the ideology but I'm too much of a realist and I expect the powers that be to now double down on it and then try and profit from it all going up in flames. (But please don't assume I am some kind of socialist/anti-capitalis…

But isn't thr closer you get to pure capitalism, the closer you got to neoliberalism? Are public institutions and utilities supposed to exist within a purely capitalistic model?

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#173
"Lefties" isn't really an insult any more than "neoliberals" is. It's just a description of a political position.

What you're doing here though, is classical left-ism: taking an innocuous statement and claiming it's terribly offensive in order to distract from his/her point.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#174
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Vote against their own interests" is one of those terms that I can't stand hearing, because it assumes whoever says it knows what's best for everyone else.

OK, maybe they know better and that's a fair point. Except that the reason they voted was wrapped into propaganda level of lies and misrepresentations. The campaign on both side was so thin on facts and so big on lies that neither side really knew what they voted for. Historically, the people that are in power now are the same guys with the same ideas and the same interests than the one that have been screwing them i…

Your argument sounds clever but stands in direct contradiction with the data in the article.

You argue that voters were misled and made a huge mistake because they didn't know what they were voting for, due to lies and misinformation, and thus voted against their own interests (not "technically" but in spirit). This is a summary of your argument.

But the article cites polls showing that Leave voters were far more skeptical of politicians and far less likely to believe them than Remain voters: 81% distrust for Leave vs 67% for Remain.

So given that you say both campaigns lied a lot, that would imply that Leave voters were less misled by propaganda and MORE likely to know what it was they were doing. Yet that does not appear to be the conclusion you have reached. Why not?

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#175
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Vote against their own interests" is one of those terms that I can't stand hearing, because it assumes whoever says it knows what's best for everyone else.

But look at eg Cornwall, who voted to leave and then realised it would mean losing a bunch of EU funding. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwa... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/26/cornwall-fea...

The EU funding in Cornwall was largely wasted. It has been studied by auditors.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#176
post #46
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rant isn't off-topic: Oftentimes the distrust for govt is reworded by socialist persons as "Remove those highly paid CEOs". But sometimes the distrust isn't against corporates. I the English case, a good part of the distrust is that elites are bringing foreigners that compete with the masses without a public debate on immigration quantity. Meanwhile liberals censor the debate by tagging those who speak up as fas…

One of the points made recently was that it's not necessarily possible to prevent "foreigners taking your job" in a globalised world. Prevent immigration? The industry goes overseas anyway. Prevent imports? Doesn't result in locally-made artisan iPhones. You can see that in e.g. Brazil where there's a high import tax on electronics. It doesn't result in import substitution but just handicaps people trying to build bu…

Many of the people most affected by immigration are service workers whose jobs cannot easily be outsourced.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#177
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But in the UK (see: brexit) and in the USA (see: Trump) > there definitely is a populist shift in progress. In Germany too, at least partially: The right-wing and very new "AfD", a relative newcomer, now has almost 1/10th of the votes (depending when you take the poll, results fluctuate).

In Sweden as well. It seems nationalism is on the rise pretty much everywhere, just as it was a hundred yrs ago which lead to WWI (and later WWII).

WW1 and WW2 were both caused by the desire of some people to engage in empire building.

Empire building is not the same thing as "nationalism" by any stretch.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Islam Muslims killing people because it is Haram to draw cartoon pictures of their imaginary sky god. Muslims sexually harassing woman in Cologne on New Years. Muslims "call to prayer" blaring over load speakers in non-Islamic countries but in their own Muslim created "suburbs". Muslims wanting public swimming pools gender-segregated. If the only way to break the ebb of this tide is through conservative/right-leani…

Aren't all those things already illegal? It is really hard to find people on either side of the political spectrum that wouldn't agree that those things should remain illegal and be enforced. So most people don't have a problem with that, but they do have a problem with labeling an entire culture, race, or religion is immortal/illegal. That's literally the definition of racism and we should be better than that. Yet i…

These illegal events come downstream of the policy of what tends to be liberal government: multicultural immigration done hastily, and without the necessary frameworks in place to support it. Regardless of whether these were ill-considered side-effects or whether the consequences came on purpose, they're that government's mistake and their responsibility.

If you're talking to your friends, and none of you are directly involved in political office, then I don't think you're getting the opinion from the people who matter. I would beware apologists, though.

I think it is the throughput or volume of importing that is most foolish about this effort, not even the intention. In Canada, there exists at least one public school that has to educate 19-22 year old Syrians who don't speak a lick of English in the midst of 15-16 year olds: same classes, same resources. It turns out that these uneducated adults are giving the administration a tough time and I fear for the sexual safety of those children.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#179
post #101

If with 'around the world' they intend to mean 'The USA and the UK' then I'm all in agreement. But the rest of the world is not that much different from 12 months ago. The article sugggests strongly that these other countries had a completely different view of their governments in the recent past but I see very little evidence of that. But in the UK (see: brexit) and in the USA (see: Trump) there definitely is a popu…

with some luck they will cause some real political reform in those two countries. Currently it looks like the most likely outcome is an independent Scotland trying to remain in the EU (with a vaguely social-democrat politics) and a chaotic / far-right England. Northern Ireland is waiting to see what will happen; the peace process there was dependent on the EU and there are some possible disastrous outcomes that nobod…

And yet the Independent, the Guardian, the FT, the Economist etc have all been posting nothing but pro-EU articles for weeks now. The Indy seems to have gone into complete meltdown. So you think these don't balance out, huh.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#180
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like there was plenty of "political innovation", especially in Europe, after the Great Depression in the 1930s? I'd argue that didn't work out too well. Hopefully this time its different.

You can hope, but does Trump and brexit look different? And if so, does it look better?

Yes, very.

Brexit was a decision about a policy, Trump is a decision about a man. The key personalities of Brexit are now all gone. What remains is the policy.

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