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Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

theatlantic.com

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Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#101

Post by pjc50 »

jacquesm wrote: post #15

If with 'around the world' they intend to mean 'The USA and the UK' then I'm all in agreement. But the rest of the world is not that much different from 12 months ago. The article sugggests strongly that these other countries had a completely different view of their governments in the recent past but I see very little evidence of that. But in the UK (see: brexit) and in the USA (see: Trump) there definitely is a popu…

with some luck they will cause some real political reform in those two countries.

Currently it looks like the most likely outcome is an independent Scotland trying to remain in the EU (with a vaguely social-democrat politics) and a chaotic / far-right England. Northern Ireland is waiting to see what will happen; the peace process there was dependent on the EU and there are some possible disastrous outcomes that nobody in charge has bothered to rule out yet (border closure with Ireland, end of Human Rights Act).

Maybe Labour will implode and leave UKIP with ~60 seats in the north of England.

In some ways this Brexit is a victory for the longest newspaper campaign in history. It wouldn't have been possible without the Daily Mail, Express and Telegraph posting anti-EU and anti-migrant stories for decades.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#102

Post by rwmj »

tomp wrote: post #98
DanBC wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But look at eg Cornwall, who voted to leave and then realised it would mean losing a bunch of EU funding. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwa... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/26/cornwall-fea...

Or maybe, they want out of the EU, but retain the level of funding they get (which should result in lower costs for the UK government, which was a net payer to the EU)?!

The UK is only a net payer if you discount the benefits of being in the largest free trade area in the world.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#103

Post by pjc50 »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #79
jacquesm wrote: post #15

If with 'around the world' they intend to mean 'The USA and the UK' then I'm all in agreement. But the rest of the world is not that much different from 12 months ago. The article sugggests strongly that these other countries had a completely different view of their governments in the recent past but I see very little evidence of that. But in the UK (see: brexit) and in the USA (see: Trump) there definitely is a popu…

> there definitely is a populist shift in progress Is it that difficult to believe that a large part of the population is not interested in multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam, etc? I think until this concept cannot be fathomed and taken seriously you will see a continued shift towards so called "populist" thinking. There _must_ be a shift towards a more moderate politics. It is too far to the left and…

"multiculturalism, unrestrained immigration, Islam"

What do those three things actually mean though? And what would it mean to end them?

Immigration is only unrestrained within the EU; EU free movement doesn't apply to either refugees from Syria or non-EU immigrants.

What does it mean to end multiculturalism? Formal ban on the teaching of minority languages, as in the bad old days when the UK tried to stamp out Gaelic and Welsh?

What does it mean to end Islam? An end to freedom of religion? Making muslims wear large yellow crescents so they can be easily identified? Remember the Bataclan attackers weren't immigrants, they were French or Belgian nationals.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#104

Post by rwmj »

internaut wrote: post #94
retrogradeorbit wrote: post #6

In my opinion this is the inevitable political crisis that unrestrained neoliberalism has lead us to. [ https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/witnes... ] I'd say this is the end of the ideology but I'm too much of a realist and I expect the powers that be to now double down on it and then try and profit from it all going up in flames. (But please don't assume I am some kind of socialist/anti-capitalis…

There is a problem with this word: Neoliberalism. First; It is mostly found in the pages of the Guardian and similar left wing publications. Right wing people almost never use it. This makes communication more difficult rather than easier. Second; The definitions of this word vary greatly. In just the same way 'Communism' is used by the right wing as a word to describe everything from the Soviet to any manifestation…

A cynical definition:

Elites = rich people I don't like

Neoliberalism = rich people I don't like making money in a way I don't like

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#105

Post by gutnor »

brightball wrote: post #75
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

"Vote against their own interests" is one of those terms that I can't stand hearing, because it assumes whoever says it knows what's best for everyone else.

OK, maybe they know better and that's a fair point. Except that the reason they voted was wrapped into propaganda level of lies and misrepresentations. The campaign on both side was so thin on facts and so big on lies that neither side really knew what they voted for.

Historically, the people that are in power now are the same guys with the same ideas and the same interests than the one that have been screwing them in the last 30 years. The vote is just giving them an immediate boost in power.

So they were mislead to follow the guy that has a consistent history of fucking them up. Maybe that's not technically directly voting against their own interests, but that does not look like the best decision one can take either.

edit: Note that you could probably say the same for the city workers. The UK has a consistent history of boosting its power. People working in the City, long term, are probably better off with neoliberal politic: they are on the winning side of the balance.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#106

Post by yAnonymous »

I don't think there was ever much trust in (western) governments. People only put up with the politicians' crap, because they were well off. Bread and circuses is now over in many places, at least compared to the recent past, and people are facing the reality of the political fuckups of he last few decades.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#108

Post by kuschku »

wallace_f wrote: post #96
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

>Ah, one of those comments. Please don't be condescending and derisive in your argument if you politically disagree with them. I'm sick of seeing that, and it's almost always not productive in an ethical way. Everyone has the right to be heard and share their opinion. If you are right, then you can win your argument on its merits, not on how you frame your opponent.

The other comment was condescending and name-calling - this one was just pointing that out.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#109

Post by jacobr »

jacquesm wrote: post #37
tajen wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rant isn't off-topic: Oftentimes the distrust for govt is reworded by socialist persons as "Remove those highly paid CEOs". But sometimes the distrust isn't against corporates. I the English case, a good part of the distrust is that elites are bringing foreigners that compete with the masses without a public debate on immigration quantity. Meanwhile liberals censor the debate by tagging those who speak up as fas…

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

> Try to imagine a USA where someone from Texas would not be able to move to LA or NYC or the other way around. Border controls against movement on every state-border. If you find that hard to imagine try to come up with a really good argument why it should be any different within the EU.

What makes you compare the EU to the US, and not say, the Americas?

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#110

Post by kuschku »

yxhuvud wrote: post #45
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

Another mistake regarding extraEU immigration is that they put all the responsibility on the Schengen border countries instead of creating a common solution for that.

You mean, something like a EUROPEAN BORDER AND COAST GUARD?

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/sec...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Border_and_Coast_Guar...

Or, its predecessor, FRONTEX?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontex

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