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Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

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Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#221

Post by reitanqild »

gutnor wrote: post #80
vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

It used to be better - I was looking for work in Spain just before the crisis. A senior dev could easily do 50K, banking positions were 70K and up. Nowadays however, you can't find anything over 35K that is related to development -and- in Spain ( i.e. not a position in Germany) Anyway - Spain does not have a problem of running out of worker, it has a problem of not paying those workers. I have been looking for years…

For a while my former employer used a Spanish software consultancy for second level support on an open source solution; they were happy to work with us because we paid well [0] and didn't argue on every bill like their other (mostly south American I think) clients did.

[0]: my boss told me literally to tell them: contract is fine, except for the hourly rate, I should tell them he would not accept to be associated with such a cheap rate so they would have to add 20% to their prices.

I use this now that I hire through upwork as well. Espescially when you hire across the globe you get chances to build good relationships for peanuts compared to around here. (Oh, works with kids as well: you can buy many lifetime friends before they become teenagers.)

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#222

Post by pcrh »

duckingtest wrote: post #204
pcrh wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on the sense in which "productivity" is being used. A remote dev working for a Bay Area company from Spain can be just as productive for his employer as one located in Los Gatos, CA. However the above method would categorize this dev as "objectively less productive", which seems counter-intuitive...

>However the above method would categorize this dev as "objectively less productive", which seems counter-intuitive... It wouldn't, it purports to explain the differences in local salaries, or more precisely salaries paid by local entities to on-site developers. It's true I didn't specify that explicitly in the first comment, along with definition of productivity, so your reading of it was a reasonable understanding.…

In other words, pay differentials are more closely related to locale than to the amount or quality of work produced.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#223

Post by tluyben2 »

charlesdm wrote: post #32
vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

Have you considered working remotely for a US company? I know a guy making €7 or 8,000 per month, after tax, living in Paris. Best of both worlds: amazing quality of living, cheap cost of living + healthcare, lots of spending (or investing) money! Seems to be working well for him.

Most of my friends find those hard to get; seems the way US guys do interviews is very unlike here.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#224

Post by triplesec »

reitanqild wrote: post #221
gutnor wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be better - I was looking for work in Spain just before the crisis. A senior dev could easily do 50K, banking positions were 70K and up. Nowadays however, you can't find anything over 35K that is related to development -and- in Spain ( i.e. not a position in Germany) Anyway - Spain does not have a problem of running out of worker, it has a problem of not paying those workers. I have been looking for years…

For a while my former employer used a Spanish software consultancy for second level support on an open source solution; they were happy to work with us because we paid well [0] and didn't argue on every bill like their other (mostly south American I think) clients did. [0]: my boss told me literally to tell them: contract is fine, except for the hourly rate, I should tell them he would not accept to be associated wit…

Are you seriously saying you are using child labour?

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#225

Post by slapresta »

mooreds wrote: post #35

Wonder if it has anything to do with low salaries? Just as an example, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12017439 has a pretty low salary for the skills they want.

It definitely has to do with low salaries: by Spanish standards, I'd say that's a good job offer. Sure, the range advertised is too broad to be useful, but at least there is one; a good one, too, considering that most tech jobs here are on the 18-30k range.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#226

Post by reitanqild »

triplesec wrote: post #224
reitanqild wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a while my former employer used a Spanish software consultancy for second level support on an open source solution; they were happy to work with us because we paid well [0] and didn't argue on every bill like their other (mostly south American I think) clients did. [0]: my boss told me literally to tell them: contract is fine, except for the hourly rate, I should tell them he would not accept to be associated wit…

Are you seriously saying you are using child labour?

>> Oh, works with kids as well: you can buy many lifetime friends before they become teenagers.)

> Are you seriously saying you are using child labour?

No, I say I buy myself friends and happy consultants that come back. The link is when you are in an advantage position (parent with small children, western SW company that use remote consultants) it takes next to no effort to make a difference in someones life.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#227

Post by nommm-nommm »

inoop wrote: post #146
muse900 wrote: post #57

Greek here, living and working abroad. Spain is doing a bit better than Greece but its on the same boat. When I speak with friends back home, I do get a feeling that they don't want to work. Is it because they are lazy? part of me wants to say yes. I can't ignore the fact that the working conditions are awful. Salaries are quite low compared to the rest of Europe, an employer has full control over you, and can fire y…

> I can't ignore the fact that the working conditions are awful one of the great things about the EU is that people can freely move inside it and work wherever they want. Nothing is stopping your friends from doing what you did - seek employment elsewhere. At the same time, if Greek and Spanish companies want to survive they'll have to learn to adapt to the new order and treat their people better, or perish.

Not everyone is 20 years old with no roots and can pick up and relocate to another country where they might not even speak the language.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#228

Post by paol »

hospes wrote: post #156
pjmlp wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Portugal you hardly get more than 1500€ after taxes, unless you are very very lucky.

€1500 a month is €18K a year, I believe Portugal has about 28% income tax for €7-20K income bracket (which seems very high), so it is roughly about €25K before taxes. And you are saying this is a good as it gets for Software Engineers. I was looking up real estate prices in Lisbon and they seemed pretty high. Per my understanding a lot of people from EU (and some outside of EU) are buying real estate in Portugal and…

Let me correct your numbers. For 1500€ monthly net your employer will pay about 3000€ (~20% income tax + ~30% social security). Multiply by 14 (Yes there are 14 salaries in a year. Don't ask.) and the yearly gross is 42000€.

Edit: https://casa.sapo.pt/ for a look at the real estate market. "para venda" is for sale, "para alugar/aluguer" is for rent.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#229

Post by wojt_eu »

triplesec wrote: post #224
reitanqild wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a while my former employer used a Spanish software consultancy for second level support on an open source solution; they were happy to work with us because we paid well [0] and didn't argue on every bill like their other (mostly south American I think) clients did. [0]: my boss told me literally to tell them: contract is fine, except for the hourly rate, I should tell them he would not accept to be associated wit…

Are you seriously saying you are using child labour?

As a 18-old Polander I was absolutely thrilled to work part-time for a US company. In hindsight, it was also much more valuable for me than academic education I pursued later.

I would be offended if someone called this child labour and attempted to limit this opportunity.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#230

Post by rcarmo »

I've been pinged by recruiters for positions in Spain pretty much every week, either multinationals who need to grow their presence or local corps looking for experts. Cost of living is about the same as here in Portugal, but my previous experience with local execs makes me leery of those opportunities.
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