Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed • Hacker News Board

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#151

Post by nostrebored » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 4:32 AM UTC

merqurio wrote: post #46

mooreds wrote: post #35

Wonder if it has anything to do with low salaries? Just as an example, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12017439 has a pretty low salary for the skills they want.

I don't think so.. Most of my friends left Spain looking for better long term opportunities rather than money. Even if our economy (and politicians) sucks, quality of life is pretty high with those salaries. I think the problem is the polarisation in the population. Very well trained people is leaving the country while non-skilled people remain. Skilled people do not trust the system therefore they leave as soon as t…

Quality of life is high, but what if you have a long term goal of moving? Making a lower wage even if proportionally you're taking home more money has a break even point, and 35k in Spain doesn't hit it.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#152

Post by jfoster » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 4:40 AM UTC

vemv wrote: post #56

Jare wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving aside the validity of the 10x programmer concept, the company still needs to be able to extract that extra performance in actual value. Most software jobs in Spain don't have productivity of that kind. Almost no companies here develop software products or services whose effectiveness translates directly into revenue. Very few of those who have tried have had any sort of long-term success.

I agree that measuring productivity is a hard, universal problem. While I don't claim to commit 10x more LOCs, I do write exceptional abstractions that allow me to get things done in a quick, robust way. I've met far too many 'senior' developers blatantly breaking DRY because they don't really know/use all features $language or $framework has to offer.

I think you're missing Jare's point. You don't need an amazingly powerful engine in your car to go at 20 miles/hour, just as companies don't need 10x programmers to work on the types of software problems that Jare asserts Spanish companies are working on.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#153

Post by emilburzo » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 4:42 AM UTC

Viper007Bond wrote: post #148

agumonkey wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he a very special kind of dev ? Why would an US company go to that length to hire someone.

My company is 100% remote. 400+ folks around the world. Stuff like that is becoming more popular.

So... are they hiring?

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#154

Post by emilburzo » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 4:43 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #109

agumonkey wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he a very special kind of dev ? Why would an US company go to that length to hire someone.

I know a lot of US companies hiring remotely. Two reasons: 1) costs (you're not competing with Google and Facebook on salary, at least not directly) and somewhat related 2) bigger applicant pool. This is especially true if you're looking for specific skills - much easier to find somebody if you're looking at 10x market. For many developer positions, having a person in the office is not much better than having remote…

Where does one find these companies?

Almost all remote job posts that I find end with "(US only)"

Example: https://hnjobs.emilburzo.com/#remote%20%22us%20only%22

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#155

Post by jfoutz » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 4:47 AM UTC

vemv wrote: post #56

Jare wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving aside the validity of the 10x programmer concept, the company still needs to be able to extract that extra performance in actual value. Most software jobs in Spain don't have productivity of that kind. Almost no companies here develop software products or services whose effectiveness translates directly into revenue. Very few of those who have tried have had any sort of long-term success.

I agree that measuring productivity is a hard, universal problem. While I don't claim to commit 10x more LOCs, I do write exceptional abstractions that allow me to get things done in a quick, robust way. I've met far too many 'senior' developers blatantly breaking DRY because they don't really know/use all features $language or $framework has to offer.

I've worked with developers that commit far far more code than i do. I still find it intimidating. I take solice in replacing those 50kloc subsystems with a few interfaces and a handful of implementations. Those -40kloc days are awesome.

To be fair, those guys that throw out tons of code really explore the problem space. it's tough to start with a clean design when the spec is vague.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#156

Post by hospes » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 4:50 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #140

themartorana wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2000-3000 Euro/month is incredibly low. Fresh devs around here go for $50k+ annually, and experience costs 6 figures easily (and I'm in Philadelphia, I'm not talking SF/NY numbers). Edit (pressed submit early): some companies use remote workers to reduce costs, but I wouldn't expect to pay such a low $36k max in Europe. Remote, if managed well, is just as good as in-house. You're not worth significantly less.

In Portugal you hardly get more than 1500€ after taxes, unless you are very very lucky.

€1500 a month is €18K a year, I believe Portugal has about 28% income tax for €7-20K income bracket (which seems very high), so it is roughly about €25K before taxes.

And you are saying this is a good as it gets for Software Engineers. I was looking up real estate prices in Lisbon and they seemed pretty high. Per my understanding a lot of people from EU (and some outside of EU) are buying real estate in Portugal and that drives prices up. How do local people buy real estate then?

What websites do local people in Portugal use for real estate sales and rentals?

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#157

Post by Waterluvian » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 4:51 AM UTC

vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

Developers are not fungible. But in my opinion: this "10x" term really has to go away. We need a better way to describe the reality that there's a range in quality and capability for developers that doesn't suggest an order of magnitude. That just means corner cutting.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#158

Post by ryanSrich » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 4:53 AM UTC

gorkemyurt wrote: post #113

fchollet wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paris is much less expensive than the bay area, but more expensive than the average US city. In fact, it's barely less expensive than NYC, one of the most expensive US cities. Also, if you are working remotely you cannot command a bay area salary.

So you are saying NYC is much less expensive than Bay Area?

NYC is significantly cheaper than SF.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#159

Post by Animats » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 4:53 AM UTC

That's what the US has done. There are lots of available workers in the US with non-salable skills.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#160

Post by prostoalex » Sat, Jul 02, 2016, 5:01 AM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #14

altoz wrote: post #8

You have two groups: 1. 5 million unemployed people 2. very highly sought after workers The employers complaining about people in group 2 being scarce are merely not paying enough. The workers complaining in group 1 need more skills that the market wants. They're at different ends of the spectrum. Other than that they live in the same country, they really don't have much to do with each other. Whether you can convert…

Very true. Just compare salaries of software engineers in most EU countries with salaries in the US. If you're a good developer, 99% of the time it's better to work remotely from Europe for a US company. It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. And yet, for some reason, this is often dismissed by CEOs as a ridiculous statement. They're probably the same people who think you need 1…

> It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. And yet, for some reason, this is often dismissed by CEOs as a ridiculous statement.

I don't think it's European vs American CEOs, it's treating software engineering as cost center vs value creator. Even in the US one would likely have a hard time procuring a large compensation package employed as a software engineer in a utility company, aerospace company or insurance industry, but the attitudes take a drastic 180 turn with tech-centric and tech-oriented companies where software creates new value.