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Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

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Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#91

Post by shostack »

winestock wrote: post #20

From the article: "Pimentel’s client asked him for list of candidates trained in “Agile” project management techniques for helping companies boost their productivity by using more I.T. systems. The client was offering as much as 200,000 euros ($220,000) a year -- almost 10 times the average salary in Spain." So they're willing to pay ten times the going rate, but they're not willing to take the time to train anyone?…

It is easy to be dismissive of executives and the fact that dealing with them takes a certain skill set.

If it is one thing I've learned as someone in a data-heavy field it is that executives don't care about the details and nuances, and that distilling the details of things like log files, etc. and conveying it in a way that aligns with their pain points, strategy, etc. does in fact take great interpersonal skills that many more technically-inclined folks unfortunately lack.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#92

Post by g4k »

jules wrote: post #40
charlesdm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered working remotely for a US company? I know a guy making €7 or 8,000 per month, after tax, living in Paris. Best of both worlds: amazing quality of living, cheap cost of living + healthcare, lots of spending (or investing) money! Seems to be working well for him.

Is the cost of living in Paris less than a normal US city?

No.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#93

Post by gleenn »

yulaow wrote: post #78
themartorana wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2000-3000 Euro/month is incredibly low. Fresh devs around here go for $50k+ annually, and experience costs 6 figures easily (and I'm in Philadelphia, I'm not talking SF/NY numbers). Edit (pressed submit early): some companies use remote workers to reduce costs, but I wouldn't expect to pay such a low $36k max in Europe. Remote, if managed well, is just as good as in-house. You're not worth significantly less.

You have to consider that here in a lot of sud-west EU states 3000e/month allow you to live VERY GOOD even in the main cities. Cost of life here is extremly low compared to that of SV.

I think that's very true, but it still seems a little crazy that you're doing the same work and getting paid 20-25% of a SV job.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#94

Post by NetStrikeForce »

calgoo wrote: post #66

So I live in Barcelona at the moment. I have 10 years of system administration experience and 3 years of devops / sysadmin experience as well. The average salary I am offered when I look around is between 25K and 45K Euros a year. However, I would say the ratio is about 60% For friends and family that are looking it really depends. If you are lucky and have / had a position in certain companies who are well known, yo…

Being a mileurista was a concern before 2008. Now it would be a blessing for many people.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#95

Post by scribu »

charlesdm wrote: post #14
altoz wrote: post #8

You have two groups: 1. 5 million unemployed people 2. very highly sought after workers The employers complaining about people in group 2 being scarce are merely not paying enough. The workers complaining in group 1 need more skills that the market wants. They're at different ends of the spectrum. Other than that they live in the same country, they really don't have much to do with each other. Whether you can convert…

Very true. Just compare salaries of software engineers in most EU countries with salaries in the US. If you're a good developer, 99% of the time it's better to work remotely from Europe for a US company. It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more. And yet, for some reason, this is often dismissed by CEOs as a ridiculous statement. They're probably the same people who think you need 1…

> It really is a simple problem to solve -- pay talented people in Europe more.

Playing devil's advocate: If we limit the discussion to pure tech companies that target a global market, then yes, it is that simple. But there is a vast majority of companies that do not belong to that category, yet require software developers.

I'm thinking primarily of Spanish software agencies that have other Spanish companies as clients.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#96

Post by calgoo »

vemv wrote: post #88
fovc wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a good place for hiring Spanish devs to work remote? I'm a native Spanish speaker and this sounds like a great arbitrage opportunity

I guess Upwork is the leading place to find freelancers. It's a race to the bottom (i.e. competing with third-world devs) though so that can discourage one. Then there's Linkedin. Personally if I receive a job offer from outside Spain I assume it's clueless recruiter spam. Your message should be extremely clear that you are actively seeking remote developers from abroad.

Basically yea, LinkedIn, hacker news, local recruiters. When searching or posting an offer, do it in Spanish, if not most Spanish people searching wont find it.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#97

Post by calgoo »

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #94
calgoo wrote: post #66

So I live in Barcelona at the moment. I have 10 years of system administration experience and 3 years of devops / sysadmin experience as well. The average salary I am offered when I look around is between 25K and 45K Euros a year. However, I would say the ratio is about 60% For friends and family that are looking it really depends. If you are lucky and have / had a position in certain companies who are well known, yo…

Being a mileurista was a concern before 2008. Now it would be a blessing for many people.

Yes true, but I think it applies, but for the people earning 2K before 2008...

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#98

Post by vacri »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #28
zeveb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm wondering what is the cognitive dissonance with employers who are unwilling to train workers. I mean, I understand the reasons if you're a an SMB, but large corporations used to train their employees or hold something close to apprenticeship programs. It was far less common for people to change jobs back then, too. Neither employers nor employees feel any real loyalty towards one another, so investing in one an…

> "It was far less common for people to change jobs back then, too. Neither employers nor employees feel any real loyalty towards one another, so investing in one another feels foolish. There's nothing to incentivise someone to stay once he's learnt the skills he needs to get a position elsewhere." Sorry, I still don't understand this attitude. I live in the UK, it's common here to have at least some level of on-the-…

Developer skills take a very long time to train. For example, you can train someone to use a forklift in a day, but there are people who have developed for 10 years and still have trouble with version control software.

Developers are a professional role, and you don't get unskilled, unemployed people and train them on the job to be professionals.

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#99

Post by davidgerard »

vemv wrote: post #29

Spanish dev here, 3 years in the business, been twice a freelancer and twice an employee. My main complaints: - The maximum salary a developer can earn at any given company is almost written in stone - around 36000 euros. Every public job posting will have that figure as the max. When it's higher, they'll water it down in the interview. Why? Probably because they don't have the notion of a 10x programmer at all. We a…

I'm in London. I've occasionally wondered why we keep hiring Spanish devs ...

Re: Spain Runs Out of Workers with Almost 5M Unemployed

#100

Post by themartorana »

mooreds wrote: post #35

Wonder if it has anything to do with low salaries? Just as an example, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12017439 has a pretty low salary for the skills they want.

"We recently raised $1m and want to exploit you by paying you 1/6 of what we would have to pay talent in the US or most of the rest of the EU."
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