Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade • Hacker News Board

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#281

Post by tracker1 » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 7:19 PM UTC

abakker wrote: post #234

eropple wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain to me why Microsoft should expend time and effort to encourage behavior (staying on Windows 7) that increases their costs and increases fragility in their ecosystem? I'm not sympathetic to the dark patterns they use to push people to upgrade, but I'm 100% onboard with not pushing improvements to an older operating system.

What about a computer that runs a specific piece of software (say, Mach3 for CNC control) that doesn't have a win10 alternative. It only runs in windows 7 32 bit. There is no good alternative. I would prefer to make the determination that the machine will NEVER update. I just need it to remain the same until mach 3 updates or an alternative comes along.

Then disconnect it from the internet, and disable automatic updates... easy, peasy.

edit: regarding downvotes... if the software versioning is mission critical for a system, then having automatic updates and being connected to an external network is a risk to that critical system. I wasn't trying to be pedantic, but was being perhaps more terse than some may appreciate.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#282

Post by Vexs » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 7:20 PM UTC

PKop wrote: post #95

pavel_lishin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those technically illiterate users are going to have trouble with Windows 10. My stepfather is in his 70s, and I had to help him set up the weather app - and it took me about ten minutes how to figure out how to set a default location! 10 is different enough from 7 that they're going to have to learn a lot of new habits - and while that's just the nature of modern life, some people are going to suffer significantly m…

Have you tried ChromeOS? My grandfather is in his mid 80's. I've been helping him with his computer(s) for years. In the last year, I switched him over to a Chromebook, after trying and failing to switch him to Windows 10 (wasn't compatible with his old computer)... and since everything he does involves websites and bookmarks anyways. It's the easiest time he's ever had using a computer. No random update notification…

I mean it covers 99% of what most people do with their computers, and in a simple, lovely way. Word? Check. Excel? Check. Photos? Check. And, most importantly, browser, check.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#283

Post by Vexs » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 7:21 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #96

themartorana wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mixed feelings about this. I'm with you 100% on having the explicit opportunity to opt out of updates like this. That said, a large swath of Windows users are not nearly as technically literate as you and your mother are, and automatically helping people forward (if for nothing else, security fixes and ongoing support) is a Good Thing in my book (so long as it's free, and it is). There is no doubt there are co…

Apple manages to get rapid uptake of their new OSes without resorting to these shenanigans. But apparently making an OS that people want to upgrade was too difficult for Microsoft.

I mean, not too much changes with apple upgrades. Sure, someone in the know can pick out generations, but I (and most people) sure can't. Win10 is a drastic change.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#284

Post by oxide » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 7:22 PM UTC

WorldMaker wrote: post #140

Bartweiss wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My biggest aggravation with Windows is the pattern of unapproved restarts. Sure, there's usually a setting to disable it, and a popup to delay it, but it's not really enough. The setting appears unreliable at best, and the popup is useless when it pops under fullscreen programs. It really only takes one ill-timed restart to damn an OS forever, especially when the restart is chased by lengthy (and impossible to declin…

The interesting thing here is that Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 all improved the Windows Update restart timing logic and made it more transparent. (There's a section that states "A restart is planned, Windows has determined the most likely idle time to try the restart is 3:43am" now, for instance.) In this case it's Windows 7's Restart logic that is old/bad (and long has been), not Windows 10, but Windows 10 of course is ge…

The only reason for me to upgrade is DirectX 12 exclusivity, a practice I personally abhor, and always have. Luckily, there are no games on the PC that use DirectX12 beyond some hackjob implementations for DX11 games. I think I'll be just fine on Windows 7.

I may upgrade when the OS is "finished." For now, though, I think I'll let others trudge through the mud of a forced public beta.

Maybe, just maybe, I might take the plunge when the video games I built my PC for actually require me to.

Until then? No thank you.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#285

Post by majewsky » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

marssaxman wrote: post #264

eropple wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain to me why Microsoft should expend time and effort to encourage behavior (staying on Windows 7) that increases their costs and increases fragility in their ecosystem? I'm not sympathetic to the dark patterns they use to push people to upgrade, but I'm 100% onboard with not pushing improvements to an older operating system.

How about this: it's none of their business what people choose to do with their computers. It's not their ecosystem.

I disagree. Outdated and thus soon malware-ridden systems are a threat to all systems connected directly or indirectly to them, so users are obliged either to keep their systems clean and up-to-date. Either themselves or through experts, or through automated servicing.

Much like how cars must be serviced in regular intervals if they are to be operated on shared infrastructure (roads).

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#286

Post by tracker1 » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 7:27 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #260

givinguflac wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Support it if you want, but you seriously think it's OK for the PC to restart in the middle of a call? What if the user is doing something mission critical; it's acceptable to just wait an hour (or more likely several) to get back to work because "MS knows best"?? There is nothing to stop it from just doing it all over again either. I will never use Windows again because of this behavior.

I've had various problems with running a long job, and then Windows popping up and saying it's going to restart shortly to install updates. Or I want to open my laptop to check something, and it demands the power plugged in so it can spend 10-20 minutes installing updates. I've worried about it doing this nonsense when I'm using it to do a presentation or something.

IIRC, you can specify a time of day to update, and mostly, you get an option to retry in 4 hours (or tomorrow, etc)... most corporate environments are using services to defer updates to scheduled times.. and at home, I just leave it on/auto. My understanding it's only after a few days of nagging that you can't defer the updates anymore.

If you can't reboot your computer for over two days, you may want to rethink your workflow... I tend to completely shutdown/restart at least every night/morning, and if I had critical pending updates, would probably let them run at lunch, just closing everything before that. This happens maybe once a month, and is just the cost of having a computer...

"Oh man, I have to stop my car and turn it off to get gas once a week. Or when I get my oil changed every few months..."

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#287

Post by tdkl » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 7:27 PM UTC

Nullabillity wrote: post #115

josefresco wrote: post #79

Since we're all sharing stories of family tech support - I recently had to give my sister's Toshiba laptop an overhaul, upgraded to Windows 10. That's it... no drama, no problems -sorry. Didn't XP teach us all a lesson about locked in/legacy software and it's danger to the security and stability of modern computing? Why is it okay that my iOS and Android devices essentially require an update several times a year but…

> Why is it okay that my iOS and Android devices essentially require an update several times a year but not my PC OS? Except, uh, they don't? My tablet (ASUS P01MA/Z580CA) still runs Lollipop and works fine. My phone (Nexus 5X) pops up with an update every month, but there is no coercion to install it, and it doesn't install it without my approval.

Precisely. I refuse to update my phone (Sony Z3C) because based on feedback it performs worse in battery life, because Google strongarmed Sony to remove their superior battery optimisation logic (Stamina) and include Googles halfassed one (Doze).

So if I'm happy with current configuration, why change it?

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#288

Post by tdkl » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 7:31 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #22

soggypretzels wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose they mean taking Apple's "We know what is good for you better than you do" approach. While Apple currently does not force OS upgrades, they do make a lot of decisions for their users without giving their users an opt-out or a way to roll back. This idea top-down, walled garden is pretty central to contemporary Apple.

Like what? Give examples. Apple makes design choices that are very opinionated on how you should use software and internals are hard to see, but they don't make decisions for you.

They decided that ios9 on 5S should stutter while scrolling throughout the OS. A smooth working device experience on 8 was broken by an update and 10 minutes later with no option to revert anymore.

Interesting it coincided with release of SE couple months later...

All vendors suck, they just all have their own incentive.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#289

Post by whyoh » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

GrumpyYoungMan wrote: post #104

SixSigma wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be upset if Windows 10 hadn't turned into a telemetry botnet for Microsoft. Edit: I see in other posts accusations of paranoia. But how can I not be paranoid when I cannot determine what is being transmitted.

I take it that you don't use a smartphone, either, since you have no way of knowing what is transmitted either, either by the primary OS or the secondary radio OS. http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_syste... Or macOS (nee OS X), since Apple gathers telemetry as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11907060 Moreover, security researchers looking to make a name for themselves are crawling all…

>If they haven't found anything in the telemetry that makes headlines yet, most likely there's nothing to find.

There's plenty to be found and Microsoft isn't even hiding it: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/itpro/windows/manage/con...

That data, even at the "Basic" level, is enough to be used for 'bad things'. And since it's on someone else's computer you can't know who has access to it, so you can assume the worst.

>Singling out Windows is ridiculous.

Just Windows 10. Because it's the only mainstream desktop OS with forced telemetry and no opt-out option.

Re: Woman wins $10k judgment against Microsoft for forced Windows 10 upgrade

#290

Post by tracker1 » Mon, Jun 27, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #270

freehunter wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upgrading software isn't (or shouldn't be) planned obsolescence. There's nothing inherent about software that means throwing away hardware. The only reason a Windows 7 machine wouldn't be able to run Windows 10 is if the hardware maker chose to not update their drivers, and at some point you have to stop blaming Microsoft for that. There is no such thing as planned obsolescence when it comes to software. "Throwing aw…

How about 100% everything instead of "basically anything", without serious "if's" like "as long as drivers are compatible" ? If a machine is running, say, windows xp, and it does in a manner that satisfies the owner's need, then it should be able to keep running forever in the same manner, provided that hardware lasts and/or is replaced with adequate spares, not necessarily anything newer. It's ok if that computer be…

Because Microsoft didn't write the drivers for 100% of hardware... and tbh, if a company wants they can pay Microsoft to write those initial drivers, and provided the hardware for testing, iirc, they tend to maintain those drivers between versions. There are plenty of drivers that are written by MS, it's pretty common with Printers iirc, and works pretty damned well.

Because foo pro-audio, or bar cnc-board didn't want to update their drivers, or for that matter, more often than not, had a weird installer that simply didn't follow proper practices, doesn't work in the new version of Windows isn't MS' fault.