No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities • Hacker News Board

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#141

Post by vox_mollis » Wed, Jun 22, 2016, 10:37 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #110

dcposch wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Here's the full conversation again, it starts with this tweet: https://twitter.com/tqbf/status/705825790529662976 That was rude, unkind and you shouldn't have posted it. Happy to have people read both the Twitter thread and the one on HN, I think I said things that were worth, if you'll pardon the phrase, speaking up about.

I feel bad about it. Specifically: I feel bad that I didn't come up with it. It was funny! Instead, I ended up subjecting someone else to the shitstorm you and Nadim briefly generated. Just weeks ago, you were on HN --- unbidden! --- to inform everyone that I'd been "joking about Nadim's penis". You two deserve each other. I'm going to bow out of this part of the thread before we start litigating a different monster…

Are you now implying that Nadim is a monster, not merely someone with whom you have a personal beef?

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#142

Post by yawaramin » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 2:21 AM UTC

chris_7 wrote: post #73

yawaramin wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it makes sense if you interpret it as having rules against seeing someone if you're in a position of power over them. If you happen to be in same organisation but have no power over them, there isn't a conflict.

Right, and that makes sense for companies, but someone should be able to make a PR against a Github project for which their wife is a maintainer.

I think these rules kind of all cease to apply at the marital boundary, and there new and equally troublesome rules take over :-)

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#143

Post by tptacek » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 1:21 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #134

prawn wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victim blaming is pretty insensitive though, as is "letting yourself get screwed over". There was an infamous case in Australia where a cleric responded to gang-rape by members of his community by labelling young girls in skirts as being like raw meat attracting animals. The implication was "of course the animals will want to eat the meat". Yes, the reality is that if you never leave the house, live in a panic room,…

> What are we ideally working towards? A world where everyone must avoid a defined level of risk (including certain level of dress!), or one where any of us can walk anywhere with an expectation that we won't be abused by another one of us? I'd like to think the latter. The latter...but we have to live in the world as it is, not the world that we hope to someday achieve. If I were to put on a top of the line Rolex wa…

Tim, these two scenarios are not really comparable.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#144

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 2:49 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #17

Animats wrote: post #14

Reworking entire organizations to deal with one jerk is overkill. Applebaum has a Wikipedia entry, which is worth reading.[1] He's been kicked out of the Tor Project, the Cult of the Dead Cow (an old and respected hacking group), and Noisebridge. They all seem to have dealt with the problem. But he does have his supporters.[2] Reading all this, it looks like a routine jerk problem. None of this has led to criminal ch…

"None of this has led to criminal charges. I dunno." Can you just come right out and say whatever it is you're implying with those last two sentences? Thanks!

[deleted]

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#145

Post by throwllll » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 4:50 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #139

throwllll wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I flag (using my non-throaway account) any article that only results in mob-and-pitchfork style discussion. Many comments in here are advocating that we should abandon the court and justice system (because its unfair to the victim, its too high requirements for conviction, ectra) in favor of just punishing the assumed guilty. I will keep flagging stories like this as long as that opinion still runs popular.

Flagging stories because you think they're off-topic for HN, or should be because of the threads they'll create, is legit. Using the flag button as a downvote button for stories you disagree with, while allowing stories on the same topics you do agree with, is an abuse.

I find mob-and-pitchfork style of threads and articles to be off-topic for HN.

If someone posted an article about one of the accusers of JA and creating a mob-and-pitchfork threads against them, I would flag it equally the same as this one. If the only purpose of the submission is to attack people (see attack articles on Wikipedia for definition and concept), then its fail the first HN rule for the threads it will create, ie its not civil to have mob-and-pitchfork threads and its not something anyone would say in a face-to-face conversation with the accused or accuser. In a previous article discussion about JA, someone compared him to hitler. Do you think they would be perfectly fine say that in person?

>> any article that only results in mob-and-pitchfork style discussion > "while allowing stories on the same topics you do agree with"

If topic == mob-and-pitchfork; goto flag-article(). How could I have been be more clear in previous comment? All, any, and regardless if I like the person being attacked or not, I do not find such article to be civil and productive for discussion. I don't even find it productive for social change, as all it does is raising the tone and driving out those that social campaigns tries to convince. Left are those that are already convinces that they are right, flaming against each other.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#146

Post by diyseguy » Thu, Jun 23, 2016, 4:53 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

It's the way she broadly insults the reading audience by finishing up with the dismissive enjoinder not to send them any personal tales of woe.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#147

Post by PavlovsCat » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 10:34 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #91

hueving wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are implying that makes it okay to assume everyone accused is guilty for all intents and purposes?

I feel like lots of people here are patting each other on the back about a snipey "innocent until proven guilty" argument they've derived by cutting one of this post's sentences in half. No, this post does not say it's "okay to assume everyone accused is guilty for all intents and purposes".

No, those two comments are simply asking. Which is fair enough, seeing how the comment doesn't say why that is "not justice", or any different from other witnesses/victims in other trials getting asked questions.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#148

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Jun 24, 2016, 5:30 PM UTC

some-guy wrote: post #63

super_id wrote: post #52

Stopped reading at the trigger warning. When did the whole internet become a joke from PCU?

I suppose then you were "triggered" by the warning?

This is a difficult problem to solve. Presumably a trigger warning about trigger warnings would also trigger?