Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

hypatia.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 148 posts

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#11

Post by pkaeding »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

I agree, such abuse should be called out. I also agree that the way this article is written makes me want to disagree with it (even though the message on the surface is a good one).

It just sounds like "Just say no to rockstars!". Yes, it goes deeper, and outlines why rockstars are a problem, but the 'just say no' message makes me a bit uneasy.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#13

Post by ksenzee »

tenementfunster wrote: post #9

'Start with the assumption that harassment reports are true and investigate them thoroughly' Sorry, what? We have this whole ideal of "innocent until proven guilty" in America (and many other places) so you can kindly take this nonsense elsewhere.

Remember, this is aimed at employers and open-source projects, not the justice system. Besides, what alternative are you suggesting? Start with the assumption that harassment reports are false, and throw them in the trash?

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#14

Post by Animats »

Reworking entire organizations to deal with one jerk is overkill. Applebaum has a Wikipedia entry, which is worth reading.[1] He's been kicked out of the Tor Project, the Cult of the Dead Cow (an old and respected hacking group), and Noisebridge. They all seem to have dealt with the problem. But he does have his supporters.[2] Reading all this, it looks like a routine jerk problem. None of this has led to criminal charges. I dunno.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Appelbaum [2] https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2858953/Statement...

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#15

Post by sowhatquestion »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

>something about the tone of this blog post is utterly repellent to me and I'm struggling to put my finger on the reason why.

Points for honesty. Drawing from my own experience: sometimes this feeling happens for a reason, and sometimes it happens gratuitously when we encounter a perspective we're not used to hearing. As Daniel Kahneman (among many others) has pointed out: "familiarity is not easily distinguished from truth."

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#16

Post by tekacs »

I absolutely agree that 'rockstarism' is hugely problematic (I agree with tptacek's sibling post on the topic).

That said, some of this post feels worryingly like it's pushing 'truth by association' to me. I'd love to hear each of the recommendations herein discussed on their own merit and with clear reasons given for each one.

That is, I wouldn't encourage anyone to conflate fighting narcissism and arrogance with quashing openness, confidence and self-respect in a demographic (engineers) which arguably already has trouble with those - irrespective of the gender of the engineer.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#17

Post by tptacek »

Animats wrote: post #14

Reworking entire organizations to deal with one jerk is overkill. Applebaum has a Wikipedia entry, which is worth reading.[1] He's been kicked out of the Tor Project, the Cult of the Dead Cow (an old and respected hacking group), and Noisebridge. They all seem to have dealt with the problem. But he does have his supporters.[2] Reading all this, it looks like a routine jerk problem. None of this has led to criminal ch…

"None of this has led to criminal charges. I dunno."

Can you just come right out and say whatever it is you're implying with those last two sentences? Thanks!

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#18

Post by DanBC »

tptacek wrote: post #3

Even if it hadn't resulted in a rash of sexual assaults in the security/privacy community, much of the advice in this post about avoiding rock star dynamics would be well taken. Rockstarism is a scourge in software security. It's probably bad everywhere it crops up, including the music industry.

Meatball wiki has something they call "Vested Contributor" which is similar.

http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/VestedContributor

https://web.archive.org/web/20160318184830/http://meatballwi...

> The vested contributor is someone who believes they are entitled to a degree of indulgence or bending of the rules because of the duration and extent of their past contributions. In some cases, this view may be shared by other community members. The indulgence of vested contributors undermines FairProcess and the WikiNow. It is demoralizing to those who have made less widely recognized contributions, and to recent arrivals. An inside club or "cabal" can arise where there are a number of vested contributors who mutually reinforce.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#19

Post by exstudent2 »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

There should be no abuse - sexual or otherwise - in tech communities. Please call it out whenever you see it, in a polite but firm manner, and don't be afraid or intimidated by it. The vast majority of people will support you, and it's important to do so not only for your own protection but for others that might not be so willing or able to do the same. That said, something about the tone of this blog post is utterly…

I think this post is way off base because it equates being a difficult employee with being a sexual predator and full blown criminal. It then outlines how to "fix" the problem with some decent solutions combined with very specific politically motivated initiatives (many links to feminist sites...). It also has a tone of absolute authority that is mirrored in the flagging and downvoting of comments happening in this very thread.

There can and should be discussion and debate around this issue especially when it casually calls for things like tossing due process and burden of proof out the window.

Post reply on HN