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No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

hypatia.ca

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Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#71

Post by MBCook »

tptacek wrote: post #61
chroma wrote: post #37

With the exception of the "assume guilt" recommendation (which seems ripe for abuse), I think these guidelines are mostly fine. But calling abusive people "rock stars" seems unnecessarily controversial. Better to use the accurate and unambiguous "abuser". That describes Jacob Applebaum far more clearly than "rock star". Also, I think a term like "rock star" (in the benevolent sense) is a useful one. There are people…

Rock star abusers are a subset of abusers, so your proposed change doesn't work. Try to give the piece the most charitable possible interpretation. Leigh Honeywell knows more about Daniel J. Bernstein and Theo de Raadt than most people on HN. There's an interpretation of this post that suggests she's claiming that DJB and Theo are abusers, but common sense --- we don't even need charity! --- tells us that's probably…

Abusers who are not rock stars are not as much of a problem because the community is much more willing to throw them out. They just seem like a troll.

But if they are also a rock star they often get tolerated/encouraged. Their value appears to mean the community is willing to put up it. And THATS where rock stars are a problem.

You can call Carmack a rock star, he's earned it. I don't think I've ever heard anything other than he's a nice guy (I hope that's not from lack of people speaking up).

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#72

Post by Animats »

protomyth wrote: post #21

It seems like they are redefining rock star in the "A rock star likes to be the center of attention." paragraph. I am getting a little sick of the trend[1] of redefining a word to mean something else. Given this, a genuine complement of calling someone a "rock star" should probably be met with a hostility. The line "A rock star appears in dozens of magazine profiles – and never, ever tells the journalist to talk to t…

"A rock star likes to be the center of attention."

That describes many CEOs and founders. The VC system today values the glib attention-seeker. So does Kickstarter, where the video of the presenter is often more important than the product. Society as a whole today rewards the attention-seeker. There was a time when self-promotion was considered an embarrassing lower-class trait, associated with door to door salesmen and such. Today, we have Donald Trump.

"Attention seeking" and "asshole" are independent. Making your organization asshole-resistant can be worthwhile. Read "Assholes, A Theory", by Aaron James. There are people who want attention but aren't assholes; many actors are like that. There are assholes who don't want attention, just power - they're found in dysfunctional organizations.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#73

Post by chris_7 »

yawaramin wrote: post #56
chris_7 wrote: post #22

This one: Avoid organizations becoming too central to people’s lives Seems at odds with this one: Enforce strict policies around sexual or romantic relationships within power structures Due to the use of the terms "organization" and "community" instead of "company" or an equivalent, it's unclear if they are referring entirely to employment (where such a prohibition would be pretty common and mundane), or if they are…

I think it makes sense if you interpret it as having rules against seeing someone if you're in a position of power over them. If you happen to be in same organisation but have no power over them, there isn't a conflict.

Right, and that makes sense for companies, but someone should be able to make a PR against a Github project for which their wife is a maintainer.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#74

Post by guitarbill »

some-guy wrote: post #4
cheez wrote: post #2

Overreact much? One guy did some shit. Maybe a bunch of people did some shit. GTFO with your moral policing and let the real police handle any crimes.

Overreact much?

and we've done better by censoring the guy? it wasn't an enlightened comment, but it wasn't even close to offensive.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#75

Post by prawn »

Saturnaut wrote: post #55
prawn wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's hugely insensitive. Why not try it from another angle and save on typing: "Don't abuse people. Problem solved!"

Well I agree with that statement as well. However, it never hurts to take preventative measures in one's own life, instead of letting yourself get screwed over and then wondering why it happened and who to blame.

Victim blaming is pretty insensitive though, as is "letting yourself get screwed over". There was an infamous case in Australia where a cleric responded to gang-rape by members of his community by labelling young girls in skirts as being like raw meat attracting animals. The implication was "of course the animals will want to eat the meat".

Yes, the reality is that if you never leave the house, live in a panic room, cover your entire self at all hours, etc you reduce the risk, but ultimately the action is on the abuser rather than the one being abused and that is where we should direct criticism, especially in immediate/direct response to something like this IMO.

What are we ideally working towards? A world where everyone must avoid a defined level of risk (including certain level of dress!), or one where any of us can walk anywhere with an expectation that we won't be abused by another one of us? I'd like to think the latter.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#76

Post by prawn »

NetTechM wrote: post #47
prawn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author uses first-hand experience as a source: https://hypatia.ca/2016/06/07/he-said-they-said/ And criticising something important as "boring" is very dismissive.

So, perhaps that would explain the extreme jump from jerk to sexual deviant and the clear tone being taken in the opening. However great first hand experience is for ted talks, it is generally relegated to very low on the quantifiable scale for corporations and the business community in general.

If the author must ignore third-party reports and first-hand experience (including a witness), what's left?

Many internal business investigations rely on exactly those things to make judgements that protect their work environment.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#77

Post by auganov »

It's decent advice for larger organizations. At startup-sized orgs you're bound to have people with disproportionate amounts of power (and often it's a good thing). I hate to be pessimistic but I think instilling a deep sense of moral wrongness of certain actions and behaviors is what you have to do in order to have real impact.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#78

Post by qaq »

prawn wrote: post #50
Saturnaut wrote: post #27

Don't sleep with people you work with. Don't drink if you can't control yourself or can't trust the people you are with. Don't do drugs if you can't control yourself or trust the people you are with. Problem solved!

Wow, that's hugely insensitive. Why not try it from another angle and save on typing: "Don't abuse people. Problem solved!"

The problem will never be solved. There are actions a society can take to reduce occurrences of the problem. There are actions individuals can take to reduce their personal risks.

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#79

Post by hueving »

vkou wrote: post #64
spriggan3 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the accused should have a presumption of guilt That may be how social media work, that's absolutely not how justice should work. Anybody can be accused of sexual misconduct on social media. It's not justice when one can't defend himself.

It's not justice when we put the victim on trial (As we do in most rape cases), but we do it anyway.

So you are implying that makes it okay to assume everyone accused is guilty for all intents and purposes?

Re: No more rock stars: how to stop abuse in tech communities

#80

Post by strangecasts »

Saturnaut wrote: post #27

Don't sleep with people you work with. Don't drink if you can't control yourself or can't trust the people you are with. Don't do drugs if you can't control yourself or trust the people you are with. Problem solved!

Don't drink if you... can't trust the people you are with.

"3 out of 4 rapes [in the US] are committed by someone known to the victim." https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violenc...

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