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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#231

Post by mafribe »

lusen wrote: post #158
mafribe wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? To wit, you wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." this is a blatantly sexist question. What if you are a man being harassed by a woman?

how much of a problem are false accusations compared to not reporting sexual harassment or rape? this is a really interesting point worth investigating. i don't have research on hand to link to (though it's fresh on my mind from reading Roxanne Gay's Bad Feminist), but my understanding is that sexual harassment and rape are grossly underreported. false positives is not a huge problem. false negatives are. by talking…

   my understanding is that sexual 
   harassment and rape are grossly 
   underreported.
My understanding is quite the opposite.

Recent media scares from the mattress girl to the UVA rape hoax to "Joey" [1], not to mention financial incentives (e.g. alimony in divorce cases), are exactly helping to convince me otherwise.

Historically, lynching was often justified by references to rape of some damsels ... Are you suggesting that these cases were anything but false accusations?

[1] http://wjbf.com/2016/06/15/facebook-post-gets-shared-thousan...

Re: “But he does good work.”

#232

Post by adrusi »

This article presents evidence that Appelbaum was a creep, but theres a big gap between creep and rapist. Pseudonymous accusations don't make for very compelling evidence.

Regardless, my intuition is inclined to accept his guilt, not that I, or almost any of the internet commenters, are really qualified to pass that judgement.

But when these cases arise, I can't help but think how easy it would be to manufacture a rape scandal, especially against a charismatic man, especially if they're a creep. I would think that security-minded people would be the first to realize this, but alas. Every time there's a public reaction like this, with the accused being fired and publicly shamed before any rigorous investigation even begins, we show potential defamers that the strategy works. It's a hard problem, because we want to support victims, but we can't ignore the fact that the accused could be the greatest victim of all.

We have to postpone judgement in cases like these, until stronger evidence emerges, else we risk creating an environment where everyone has to live in fear of false scandals. We can't let that get in the way of reporting on the case, but at least we shouldn't give any credance to crap like the "skewering" article refuting Appelbaum's denial [1] (what statement of denial would have convinced the author?) and we shouldn't be respecting statements like in the Wired article [2]:

Shepard also says she’s spoken directly with one of Appelbaum’s alleged victims, who told Shepard in February of this year that Appelbaum had raped him or her. “Sadly… I think it’s the damn truth. He’s a charismatic, socially dominant manipulator,” Shepard writes to WIRED. “I absolutely believe the accusers.”

He's a charismatic, socially dominant manipulator, therefore he raped this woman? Does muscularity implicate someone in a mugging? The fact that you spoke with someone who spoke with an alleged victim and they were convinced, is meaningless, considering how many people are convinced of Appelbaum's guilt without knowing almost anything about the case.

[1] https://medium.com/@frabyn/decoding-jake-appelbaum-9fa75d060...

[2] https://www.wired.com/2016/06/tor-developer-jacob-appelbaum-...

Re: “But he does good work.”

#233

Post by samastur »

ultramancool wrote: post #99
samastur wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it really doesn't based on research so far. I also do not understand your obsession with alleged rape. If it turned out that rape part was not true, but others were, would you see Applebaum differently? I sure as hell wouldn't.

I certainly would. There's a major difference between someone making some offensive comments (even repeatedly) and someone committing violent crime.

I would not describe his acts as "some offensive comments". The reason why I don't see much of a difference is because I don't find the difference between psychological and physical violence that important when effect is similar and to me it seems to be.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#234

Post by ultramancool »

samastur wrote: post #233
ultramancool wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly would. There's a major difference between someone making some offensive comments (even repeatedly) and someone committing violent crime.

I would not describe his acts as "some offensive comments". The reason why I don't see much of a difference is because I don't find the difference between psychological and physical violence that important when effect is similar and to me it seems to be.

> I don't find the difference between psychological and physical violence that important when effect is similar

There's good reason why these crimes are differentiated in the laws of every country around. The effects are not remotely comparable and to suggest that they are is quite offensive to victims of real violence.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#235

Post by avocad »

Kalium wrote: post #229
smoyer wrote: post #64

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men…

It's great in the abstract. Enlightened bystanders, intervening to halt abusive behavior. Exactly what everyone who's ever suffered abusive behavior dreams of! I know I have in the past. Yet in practice, trying to be that enlightened bystander means listening in on a lot of private conversations, a lot of privately judging people and their actions with context, and a lot of intruding in places where nobody involved h…

There were mentions of open, public humiliations with sexual suggestions. You don't have to accept that talk in a meeting that you attend even when it is completely consensual.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#236

Post by masmullin »

camperman wrote: post #204
llamataboot wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you missed the part where many of the people that have been abused by Appelbaum are also radicals that both distrust the criminal justice system AND think that it has overall negative effects that don't serve anyone? There are ways of getting to accountability and rehabilitation and justice that don't have anything to do with filing charges in a court of law. Start with looking up "restorative justice" and "rest…

> Have you missed the part where many of the people that have been abused by Appelbaum are also radicals that both distrust the criminal justice system AND think that it has overall negative effects that don't serve anyone? I don't really care. For all its faults, due process in the West is still a whole lot better than the alternatives. > There are ways of getting to accountability and rehabilitation and justice tha…

saved

Re: “But he does good work.”

#237

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

jessaustin wrote: post #88
clavalle wrote: post #62

Perhaps I am being stereotypically Texan here, but sometimes I wish there was space in our legal and ethical system to kick someone's ass for behavior that doesn't reach the level of provable criminality but that still calls for more than a sharp rebuke, public shaming, or ostracism. Our current status quo of 'violence is never the answer' seems to give assholes a bit too much wiggle room to make the rest of us suffe…

In many jurisdictions, that space does exist, because cops and prosecutors are comfortable "looking the other way" when it's clear there is a reason to do so. It is to Texas's credit that much of that state is such a jurisdiction, but in fact much of the fly-over country is. Of course, a fake-ass "anarchist" like Applebaum might file a civil suit for a well-deserved ass-kicking, but that's still sunlight.

Among all the problems with this kind of folk justice is it tends to "criminalize" things like "breathing while black" or "looks gay".

Re: “But he does good work.”

#238

Post by ScottBurson »

lusen wrote: post #122
danso wrote: post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

indeed. victims of rape and sexual harassment are often blamed for the aggressors behavior, as if clothing or inebriation or past interactions makes such violations ok. look at what the police asked the victim in the recent stanford rape case! it's baffling. https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/heres-the-powerful-let... women who wear feminine or even sexual clothing and make-up aren't "sluts who are asking for it".…

I think this is a great post, but I have one small nit to pick:

> being involved with an underage sex worker

I've seen others argue, and I agree: there's no such thing as an "underage sex worker" or "child prostitute" -- terms that have been used for some time in the mainstream press. The correct term is "child sex trafficking victim" or the like. The point is that minors cannot legally consent to sex, so legally they must be victims, not criminals.

I don't know about the specific incident you're referring to, but if by "involved with" you mean "participating in the victimization of", I hope there were very serious consequences.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#239

Post by masmullin »

adrusi wrote: post #232

This article presents evidence that Appelbaum was a creep, but theres a big gap between creep and rapist. Pseudonymous accusations don't make for very compelling evidence. Regardless, my intuition is inclined to accept his guilt, not that I, or almost any of the internet commenters, are really qualified to pass that judgement. But when these cases arise, I can't help but think how easy it would be to manufacture a ra…

> we risk creating an environment where everyone has to live in fear of false scandals.

I think this is an interesting concept and needs to be brought more to light.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#240

Post by ScottBurson »

fhood wrote: post #128

Sometimes the hardest part about dealing with people like this is that they seem to have multiple personalities. Thus a person that to me (white male) seems like a great guy, may not be that same person at all when they interact with others (women or minorities for instance). It can be really difficult to reconcile the person you know with the person that other people are interacting with, and when glimpses of this l…

Such a person wouldn't necessarily even be abusive to all women. They tend to choose the most vulnerable as their victims.

In this case we've seen a group of women publish a statement saying "Appelbaum never treated us like that" [0]. Well, it's nice that he wasn't a jerk to absolutely every woman he ever met, but that really doesn't prove anything at all. (At least the statement is fairly carefully worded so as not to dismiss the possibility that Appelbaum harmed others... but I still have to wonder if it was a good thing that they published it.)

[0] https://ourresponse.org/

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