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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#121

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

Have you missed the part where many of the people that have been abused by Appelbaum are also radicals that both distrust the criminal justice system AND think that it has overall negative effects that don't serve anyone? There are ways of getting to accountability and rehabilitation and justice that don't have anything to do with filing charges in a court of law. Start with looking up "restorative justice" and "restorative justice rape" for example, to read about approaches that have worked. Isis even talked about being involved in some of these approaches in the past (and why they weren't currently working with Appelbaum)

Re: “But he does good work.”

#122
post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

indeed. victims of rape and sexual harassment are often blamed for the aggressors behavior, as if clothing or inebriation or past interactions makes such violations ok.

look at what the police asked the victim in the recent stanford rape case! it's baffling. https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/heres-the-powerful-let...

women who wear feminine or even sexual clothing and make-up aren't "sluts who are asking for it". they're not asking for unprofessional flirtation or jokes, and they're certainly not asking for bullying, disrespect or aggression. i'm not talking about dress code nuance. i'm not talking about whether someone is making destructive decisions or simply different decisions. i'm specifically talking about how femininity is used as an excuse to diminish and over-reach, as an excuse for those with power to project their desires and discount the will of those without. how one person dresses or behaves doesn't justify someone else being an asshole. and yet that is exactly how we make women feel when men cross boundaries, whether it is a rude joke or a physical violence.

the only other time i can think of clothing mattering in a crime is when black people are murdered and somehow it is justified because hoodie :-O

more generally, notifying authorities about sexual harassment or rape is extremely difficult - culturally, not just logistically. because of rape culture and the normative masculinity of most people in power, eg management and police, victims face aggressive doubt. people who speak up often face serious retaliation (bullying, asked to move locations rather than asking the aggressor to move, seen as a problem, stigmatized, etc), which can be even worse - professionally and emotionally - than the incident itself.

Casually telling people to shut up and file a claim reveals deep ignorance. In the Bay Area for example, we've recently had issues with police texting each other homophobic slurs, being involved with an underage sex worker, asking "shaming" questions of a rape victim, and of course being acquitted for murdering unarmed black and brown people. These are just the news-reading ways in the last 12 months that might lead someone to have less trust in authority, to think that maybe those with power aren't on their side.

One's parents, one's friends, one's experiences in the world - they also tell some people that police are not on their side. Daughter, always find a populated, well lit place to pull over at night if a police car flags you to stop. Son, you are black, so when the police pull you over for no reason be calm, be the bigger man, white people are taught to fear you, to see you as an "angry violent black man", so be extra small, don't draw attention. Child, you were born here like your friends, but your parents don't have papers, if you come home from work one day and we are not here it is because they found us, don't draw attention.

Having "the law" on one's side is a privilege. If someone can expect to call the police and have their problems taken seriously, they have a privilege. They don't need to feel guilty -- all of us on HN have some kind of privilege, eg access to the internet and reading and writing -- but they do need to acknowledge that not everyone is the same as themselves. they're not a jerk for having access to the police. but they are ignorant for not thinking about the challenges and differences others face, and then telling people they're doing it wrong for not shutting up and choosing an "easy" solution. have some compassion. be supportive. that's what it means to acknowledge privilege.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#123
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even putting aside whether he is a literal rapist or not, it sounds like he is blatantly guilty of being a serial sexual harasser. The examples of public behaviour he is noted for in the article are completely beyond the pale.

Certainly, but it just concerns me how bad they're working to make this guy out as a rapist, when no one has been willing to put their name on an actual rape accusation.

Is that your takeaway from that post? Out of over 3000 words, "rape" was literally only mentioned twice. The rest of it was an account of A LOT of appalling and unacceptable sexual harassment.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#124

If a guy like this were to get a legitimate psychiatric diagnosis, what do you suppose it'd be? Not that I feel bad for the guy, mind you, rather I feel it'd be helpful to the community of people who have been affected by this kind of behavior to have an accurate name for it other than just saying the guy is a douchebag. I knew a guy in college who had some aspects of this guy's behavior and was diagnosed with narcis…

"Complex interplay between own personality and patriarchy/misogyny"

Re: “But he does good work.”

#125
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you have to live longer to experience this. Have encountered false accusations more than once in my life (not about me, but I knew they were false). If I'm typical, then they happen all the time everywhere?

False accusations of sexual harassment in particular, or accusations in general?

No. E.g. one was of a traffic incident that I was a passenger in.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#126
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, while I'm pretty much willing to believe this just due to the people involved, it is curious that no one has been willing to put their name on an actual rape accusation.

Maybe because that's a very personal matter? I imagine that most people that have been victims of rape do not want their name to be part of the public discussion.

"I imagine that most people that have been victims of rape do not want their name to be part of the public discussion."

I think this is a reasonable assumption.

However, that doesn't change the fact that if nobody officially stands up and makes use of the legal system, a predator will go unpunished....and quite possibly hurt others.

Unless one is hoping that vigilantism will take care of the problem, but that's rather horrible too.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#127
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Specifically, this: "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed." JA was not essential for Tor's continued survival as a project and a movement. They chose the convenience of a good developer at the cost of his victims. Are you going to personally tell the victims that their sacrifice was worth it, because Tor is better than ever?

> Are you going to personally tell the victims that their sacrifice was worth it, because Tor is better than ever? Probably not, I don't know any of them personally. > They chose the convenience of a good developer at the cost of his victims. That's one interpretation. But maybe the community around Tor decided that these accusations are independent problem, which should be dealt with by the police and justice system…

> they should have freedom to decide for themselves. Yes, maybe they will make some other members unhappy in the process.

They can and do have the freedom to decide for themselves. Right now they seem to be deciding that this guy should be excluded because it's better for the community.

Some people struggle to understand when it's okay to exclude others, presumably because they were excluded at some point and found it hurtful. Sometimes, though, the person you are trying to include is hurtful, and the rest of the community suffers as a result. By excluding a hurtful person, you include others who are driven away by the hurtful person. You might think that you're giving the "choice" to everyone by keeping the hurtful person in the community, but you aren't. The people driven away by the dangerous, hurtful, or just plain abrasive people don't have the choice to participate in a healthy community. So long as the community chooses to include hurtful people, they choose to exclude the people victimized by those hurtful people.

I have friends who were really into tabletop gaming (e.g. Warhammer 40k). They used to go to the gaming store to play with other people in the gaming community. They stopped going because a number of the players there were assholes. They were abrasive, and made creepy remarks toward women, and generally made it unpleasant to be there. New people would show up to play a few times, have a bad interaction, and stop coming. Other people also stopped going because of this, which meant the assholes were an even bigger piece of the community. Eventually my friends stopped going entirely because the community wasn't fun to engage with anymore. Including the assholes drove away too many of the good community members. Including the assholes hurt everyone else.

> It gets revealed that famous person in OSS project cheated on taxes. Should there be a call trying to ban him from working on OSS?

This is entirely different, because in the case of Appelbaum, the community is (allegedly) being victimized. If he'd cheated on his taxes, no one would likely be calling for him to be excluded from the community. If he were repeatedly stealing from his co-workers wallets? Yeah, there would probably be a call to exclude him because he's toxic.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#128
Sometimes the hardest part about dealing with people like this is that they seem to have multiple personalities. Thus a person that to me (white male) seems like a great guy, may not be that same person at all when they interact with others (women or minorities for instance). It can be really difficult to reconcile the person you know with the person that other people are interacting with, and when glimpses of this less pleasant personality show through in casual comments and the like, it is all too easy to write them off as jokes, because no one wants to believe that their friend is a bad person.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#129
post #111
post #108

Is there really a big problem with acceptable/legal behavior not being agreed upon? Isn't the problem usually that the guy claims "it was consensual?" Similarly, when police consider what a woman was wearing, isn't usually in the context of figuring out who's story they believe? In other words, the police aren't thinking "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him to his room and therefore deserved to get raped" bu…

What someone is wearing has nothing to do with consent.

Your claim is that P(consent | sexy clothes) = P(consent | not sexy clothes)? Seems counterintuitive. Do you have evidence to support this claim?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#130

I am completely on her side and this dude seems sketchy. However, Macrina's story mentioned in a different article[0] sounded very very strange to me. I simply don't understand how Macrina, a working professional adult, can follow that kind of logic. To me it simply sounds like she made a mistake and now regrets it. [0] - http://gizmodo.com/another-woman-has-accused-jacob-appelbaum...

It sounds scarily real to be. Being manipulated is a thing, and this ticks all the boxes: she was tired/hungover, he wouldn't take no for an answer, he continued talking about mundane stuff to maintain an atmosphere of normality even while applying strong pressure, she only found the strength to resist after being dragged (literally!) outside of her comfort zone.

It rings very true and does not sound like the kind of story someone would make up for attention.

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