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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#71

Post by gnaritas »

collyw wrote: post #51
gnaritas wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more than enough evidence for him to have been fired "in that article alone"; of course a rape charge would have to be prosecuted, my saying he should be in jail doesn't mean "without due process". Firing someone however requires no due process, several women complaining about harassment is more than enough.

I hope you never have to server jury duty if that is enough evidence for you.

The bar for firing is much lower than the bar for imprisonment, you obviously can't see that, but it's true none the less. That article contains first hand testimony of multiple incidence of abuse and names numerous witnesses so it's all easily verifiable; if that's not enough evidence for you to fire someone, you need to reevaluate your standards. If you wouldn't fire him for those complaints, you're complicit in his abusive behavior.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#72

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

moon_of_moon wrote: post #63
pjc50 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reflagging the comment, because it's wrong in predictable ways. Firstly, the conspiracy-theory reference to "establishment-mandated"; and secondly peer-to-peer situations are quite full enough of power relations. Especially as between men and women.

Dear establishment, When you see a talented programmer as a threat, help him start a company and buy him out, instead of resorting to this kind of behaviour. I think I see what this is about... https://github.com/ioerror

Why would you reward such a person.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#73

Post by zellyn »

zellyn wrote: post #66
HarryHirsch wrote: post #35

Everyone who advocates for codes of conduct needs to have a hard look at the Appelbaum story and answer cogently how a code of conduct would have defended against Jacob Appelbaum. That's the great weakness, they do not work at all against anyone in an elevated social position.

Most codes of conduct I've seen would have helped by: - making it explicit up-front that the behavior described is considered unacceptable by the community, which would help victims know that they have the support of the community - publicizing a way of reporting inappropriate behavior - setting up some kind of group governance for acting on reports All of those things seem incredibly helpful. And I'm sure I've misse…

Publicizing a way of reporting behavior would have ensured that there was a central, cumulative record of bad behavior, instead of anecdotal and diffuse understanding of the problem.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#74

Post by pjc50 »

infodroid wrote: post #58

Why does it seem like people working in tech have such a hard time keeping their personal and professional lives separate? I'm not just talking about incidents of poor conduct. It's also the fact people are exchanging insults and serious accusations over blog posts. It's not like the observers have the facts and evidence to make fair judgements on these matters. The whole trial by social media is really embarrassing…

Other industries do it in the old news media instead. And this isn't quite so much "industry" as "activism". If it were a professional setting, there would be an HR process to deal with it.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#75

Post by JoeAltmaier »

pjc50 wrote: post #69
camperman wrote: post #38

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

False accusations can and do happen all the time No, accusations are labelled as false all the time; genuinely baseless accusations are much rarer.

Maybe you have to live longer to experience this. Have encountered false accusations more than once in my life (not about me, but I knew they were false). If I'm typical, then they happen all the time everywhere?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#76

Post by dantillberg »

danso wrote: post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

Edit: Oops, I misread the parent, and I agree that yes, seeking legal help in a case like this is much harder than with robbery, which is hard enough.

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Robbery doesn't really make for a good comparison here:

- Did you fear for your own physical safety (e.g. that the thief or their friends/etc might retaliate) in reporting the crime to the police?

- Did you known the thief? Did you have friends in common, or did you work together? Will you possibly see social retaliation from the thief's allies for reporting their behavior?

- Does everyone involved, including the thief and the police, agree on what defines acceptable/legal behavior, or are you going to be argue with the police and others that just because you wore a sexy dress didn't mean that you "wanted" someone to steal your phone?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#77

Post by ultramancool »

chaz72 wrote: post #65
ultramancool wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great way to make sure you have an unjust community wherein no one has the opportunity to defend themselves and speaking ill of someone is enough to evict them.

A slippery slope, if you will? No, let this case stand on its own: The leaders of the Tor community were shown evidence they considered to be sufficient to boot this guy. It's a community they lead, they get to decide who is welcome. You want to start your own community and welcome him with open arms, you go right ahead.

Last I checked the Tor developers don't own the entire privacy community.

That said, yes, they do lend a lot of legitimacy to this claim, but it just concerns me that no one has publicly put their name on a rape allegation and nothing has been taken up legally.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#78

Post by adwn »

ultramancool wrote: post #55
camperman wrote: post #38

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

Yeah, while I'm pretty much willing to believe this just due to the people involved, it is curious that no one has been willing to put their name on an actual rape accusation.

Maybe because that's a very personal matter? I imagine that most people that have been victims of rape do not want their name to be part of the public discussion.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#79

Post by m_t »

DanBC wrote: post #10

It's really important that we understand why it's hard for people to stand up against abuse. It's very easy to say "I would", and maybe you would, but we see time and time again that it's hard for people to make that stand.

I don't know why your comment seems downvoted.

I think it is a very valid question. How, as an employer, as a community, can we make sure negative or abusive behaviour is dealt with correctly?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#80

Post by ultramancool »

adwn wrote: post #78
ultramancool wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, while I'm pretty much willing to believe this just due to the people involved, it is curious that no one has been willing to put their name on an actual rape accusation.

Maybe because that's a very personal matter? I imagine that most people that have been victims of rape do not want their name to be part of the public discussion.

Perhaps, but if you're going to make public accusations against him, but then back out before anyone can validate them, that seems... suspect at best.

What, it's better to let him go out and hurt others than to take it public or legal?

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