“But he does good work.” • Hacker News Board

Re: “But he does good work.”

#61

Post by mordocai » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 3:14 PM UTC

ultramancool wrote: post #57

chaz72 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Jail needs to wait for formal charges, but the community can make its own decisions whether they will accept his behavior - and they may decide they care about things that are both vile and legal, they may use entirely different reasoning than the courts.

This is a great way to make sure you have an unjust community wherein no one has the opportunity to defend themselves and speaking ill of someone is enough to evict them.

Unfortunately, not doing this is a good way to end up in a situation like outlined in the blog post.

There isn't an easy answer here.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#62

Post by clavalle » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 3:15 PM UTC

Perhaps I am being stereotypically Texan here, but sometimes I wish there was space in our legal and ethical system to kick someone's ass for behavior that doesn't reach the level of provable criminality but that still calls for more than a sharp rebuke, public shaming, or ostracism. Our current status quo of 'violence is never the answer' seems to give assholes a bit too much wiggle room to make the rest of us suffer.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#63

Post by moon_of_moon » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 3:16 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #59

moon_of_moon wrote: post #45

Reposting, because at this point two other comments have referenced this flagged comment, therefore it probably has value: "I guess we've reached a point where you can tell when you are looking at establishment-mandated discrediting of a fellow programmer via "community volunteers" aka shills, but are afraid to call it, because you fear you might be next. So I will say it: This is mostly bullshit. If he did something…

Reflagging the comment, because it's wrong in predictable ways. Firstly, the conspiracy-theory reference to "establishment-mandated"; and secondly peer-to-peer situations are quite full enough of power relations. Especially as between men and women.

Dear establishment,

When you see a talented programmer as a threat, help him start a company and buy him out, instead of resorting to this kind of behaviour.

I think I see what this is about... https://github.com/ioerror

Re: “But he does good work.”

#64

Post by smoyer » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 3:16 PM UTC

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech.

If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable.

But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men who are willing to speak out against them, and an ocean of those who don't want to be involved in the middle, only a mere whisper of voices are countering those who, to be honest, tend to be the loud-mouth, misbehaving misogynists. It's time for the gentlemen to step up their game.

If you're being harassed, sexually or otherwise, within my earshot, I will take action to stop it. I'm not offering hugs of consolation but rather to stand between you and the abuse. I will protect you (potentially a stranger) as I would a member of family or any of my close friends. Those of us with spouses, daughters (and sons) want safe places for them to work too!

I originally wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." but realize there are many cases where a bully is harassing someone who shares their gender. And in the corporate world, there are always predators taking credit for others work (according to recent studies, it's the psychopaths that rise to the top).

I've had a long career in technology, and in theory have enough of a reputation that I can afford to spend some political capital. I think the younger men who are "just starting out" have a bigger voice than they realize, but they need to band together. Let's take back the organizations that have degraded to this point ... when there's nowhere left for people like Applebaum to work, I still won't feel sorry for him.

What's it going to be boys? ... are you willing to step up your game? To behave like men? Or better yet, to become a real gentleman?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#65

Post by chaz72 » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 3:17 PM UTC

ultramancool wrote: post #57

chaz72 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Jail needs to wait for formal charges, but the community can make its own decisions whether they will accept his behavior - and they may decide they care about things that are both vile and legal, they may use entirely different reasoning than the courts.

This is a great way to make sure you have an unjust community wherein no one has the opportunity to defend themselves and speaking ill of someone is enough to evict them.

A slippery slope, if you will? No, let this case stand on its own:

The leaders of the Tor community were shown evidence they considered to be sufficient to boot this guy. It's a community they lead, they get to decide who is welcome. You want to start your own community and welcome him with open arms, you go right ahead.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#66

Post by zellyn » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 3:18 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #35

Everyone who advocates for codes of conduct needs to have a hard look at the Appelbaum story and answer cogently how a code of conduct would have defended against Jacob Appelbaum. That's the great weakness, they do not work at all against anyone in an elevated social position.

Most codes of conduct I've seen would have helped by:

- making it explicit up-front that the behavior described is considered unacceptable by the community, which would help victims know that they have the support of the community

- publicizing a way of reporting inappropriate behavior

- setting up some kind of group governance for acting on reports

All of those things seem incredibly helpful. And I'm sure I've missed some.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#67

Post by dpark » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 3:19 PM UTC

js8 wrote: post #41

gnaritas wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses. What on earth are you talking about? > If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me. He should be in jail, there's nothing medieval about separating a rapist from the community. Anyone who introduces people to you by lying and saying you give good head in a…

> What on earth are you talking about? Specifically, this: "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed." And this: "When someone harasses, humiliates, discounts, abuses, threatens, stalks, takes action to harm someone, no — they do not do good work." > He should be in jail, there's nothing medieval about separating a rapist from the community. Assuming he is a rapist (he h…

>But even then, he shouldn't be entirely prevented to participate in coding on Tor or political activity or whatever he was doing.

You think that if this guy literally raped people he should not be excluded from the community he exploited and damaged? What the fuck, dude?

If the stories coming out about this guy are true, then he is dangerous. He should be excluded from the community, not as some sort of vigilante punishment, but to keep others in the community safe. If you know someone has a pattern of hurting others and you choose to keep enabling them, then it's your fault, too.

Hans Reiser is an interesting comparison because he didn't murder his coworkers. It's one thing to say "everybody deserves a second chance". It's an entirely different thing to say that everyone deserves a second chance with the very same people they victimized. Do you think Reiser's in-laws are morally obligated to invite him to their holidays once he's served his time?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#68

Post by pwenzel » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 3:19 PM UTC

> CULT OF THE DEAD COW is known for a lot of things, but treating people horribly is not one of them. If communities are to thrive and remain relevant we have to do some housecleaning from time to time. As we have become aware of the anonymous accusations of sexual assault, as well as the stories told by individuals we know and trust, we’ve decided to remove Jake from the herd effective immediately.

http://w3.cultdeadcow.com/cms/2016/06/cult-of-the-dead-cow-s...

Re: “But he does good work.”

#69

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 3:20 PM UTC

camperman wrote: post #38

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

False accusations can and do happen all the time

No, accusations are labelled as false all the time; genuinely baseless accusations are much rarer.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#70

Post by vkazanov » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 3:20 PM UTC

adwn wrote: post #16

> Most of the outlets are having a hard time wrapping their heads around how this could go on so long within arenas whose missions are to fight against injustice and power imbalances, and to champion whistleblowers. I see no dichotomy whatsoever. In fact, I would even say that individuals and organizations that pursue a "higher calling" (in this case, freedom from governmental authority) are more willing to sacrifice…

I believe this is true for all organisations implying hierarchy, explicit (big enterprises) or implicit (as in hacker communities): some people join the ranks only to be able to enjoy domination at the top of the pyramid.