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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#181

Post by js8 »

frandroid wrote: post #168
js8 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with that, assuming he is guilty. On the other hand, it's up to the particular community (or employer) to weight the situation. I don't think doing something illegal should mean that every community should shun you, and it seems to me that's what the article calls for.

It's a warning to other communities that unless he changes his ways, which probably involves undergoing therapy, there is a high likelihood that he will be a threat to women elsewhere. Communities can and will do what they want, but his history should be known so that people don't advertently put more women at risk of his predatory behaviour.

I certainly agree with that. I don't however agree that it invalidates the possibly good work that he has done in other areas. (As I explain below, that's what the article seems to claim.)

Re: “But he does good work.”

#182

Post by mcguire »

Well, there is a bright side to all this.

Social engineering is still the easiest, most successful approach to breaking any security infrastructure. Intelligence agencies have a long history of using sexual-antic-related blackmail as a lever against their opponents.

But if nobody cares, it becomes somewhat more difficult to apply the lever.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#183

Post by avocad »

romanovcode wrote: post #156
smoyer wrote: post #64

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men…

>What's it going to be boys? ... are you willing to step up your game? To behave like men? Or better yet, to become a real gentleman? Chivalry is dead, and women killed it.

If your chivalry is killed that easily, it was not worth much to begin with.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#184

Post by joyeuse6701 »

danso wrote: post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

It should be difficult to convince the system, it should not be easy. If it were people would 'hack it' to there benefit. See welfare.

True, a victim will face the emotional hurdle and trauma. The system is unfeeling.

People these days mostly avoid confrontation. Going to the police is confrontation by proxy, and when it takes convincing to get them to take action, a beaten down victim has quite a battle to face.

The world is unpleasant, it will always be so, it will always be full of suffering. We strive to do our best as a people to improve our lot in life, but that doesn't mean lowering your defenses. Always advocate peace, always prepare for war. Many rely on the system or 'it won't happen to me' mentality as to why they don't or won't protect themselves. You shouldn't have to train in self defense but you must. You shouldn't have to be aware of the situation, but you must. You shouldn't have to note the exit signs in an enclosed structure, but you must. You shouldn't have to cover your drink but you must. You shouldn't have to blend in so as to not draw attention from a threat, but you must. Our world is dangerous, we like to think it isn't, and it's so much easier to tell ourselves that we're a victim and deserve sympathy than to ask ourselves what we could have done to prevent this and defend ourselves. We want someone else to do it for us. A higher up, police, lawyers... do it yourself, defend yourself and your friends.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#185

Post by shasta »

lusen wrote: post #140
shasta wrote: post #108

Is there really a big problem with acceptable/legal behavior not being agreed upon? Isn't the problem usually that the guy claims "it was consensual?" Similarly, when police consider what a woman was wearing, isn't usually in the context of figuring out who's story they believe? In other words, the police aren't thinking "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him to his room and therefore deserved to get raped" bu…

> "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him up to his room so maybe his claims that it was consensual are true." how is that reasonable? maybe we should ask what she claims and what he wore. but wait, what clothing indicates whether someone is a rapist? tshirts and tatty jeans? polo shirt? suit? of course clothing implies nothing. why does her wearing "sexy" clothing -- to say nothing of "sexy" being all about th…

Of course it's not reasonable to conclude that he's telling the truth on the basis of her clothing. But my point is that it's also not reasonable to treat any mention of her clothing as off limits. It's just one piece of evidence.

If a woman is raped, and the guy claims it was consensual, do you think a woman should be able to point out that, "if I had any intention of sleeping with him I wouldn't have been wearing those underwear?" Or should that piece of evidence be excluded because clothing is never relevant?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#186

Post by ElComradio »

jessaustin wrote: post #88
clavalle wrote: post #62

Perhaps I am being stereotypically Texan here, but sometimes I wish there was space in our legal and ethical system to kick someone's ass for behavior that doesn't reach the level of provable criminality but that still calls for more than a sharp rebuke, public shaming, or ostracism. Our current status quo of 'violence is never the answer' seems to give assholes a bit too much wiggle room to make the rest of us suffe…

In many jurisdictions, that space does exist, because cops and prosecutors are comfortable "looking the other way" when it's clear there is a reason to do so. It is to Texas's credit that much of that state is such a jurisdiction, but in fact much of the fly-over country is. Of course, a fake-ass "anarchist" like Applebaum might file a civil suit for a well-deserved ass-kicking, but that's still sunlight.

This is one of the many reasons why Texas is filled to the brim with happy and well adjusted people.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#187

Post by throvwavvay »

lusen wrote: post #140
shasta wrote: post #108

Is there really a big problem with acceptable/legal behavior not being agreed upon? Isn't the problem usually that the guy claims "it was consensual?" Similarly, when police consider what a woman was wearing, isn't usually in the context of figuring out who's story they believe? In other words, the police aren't thinking "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him to his room and therefore deserved to get raped" bu…

> "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him up to his room so maybe his claims that it was consensual are true." how is that reasonable? maybe we should ask what she claims and what he wore. but wait, what clothing indicates whether someone is a rapist? tshirts and tatty jeans? polo shirt? suit? of course clothing implies nothing. why does her wearing "sexy" clothing -- to say nothing of "sexy" being all about th…

First, what do clothing say about intention? I would like to live in a world where clothing is all about keeping a balanced body temperature and nothing else.

The second question is of course, does it even matter what intention people had? Maybe it should not be the police job to determine which person is more believable, but rather just write down the statement of the accuser and the accused, and collect any evidence that a prosecutor might find valuable in their decision to either pick up the case or not.

The third question is then, if police would have a policy to investigate anything reported, will there be enough resources? How much added taxes would be needed to have a 100% impartial police whose only duty is to investigate and deliver reports to prosecutors who then do the judgement on whom to believe.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#188

Post by maxerickson »

lusen wrote: post #122
danso wrote: post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

indeed. victims of rape and sexual harassment are often blamed for the aggressors behavior, as if clothing or inebriation or past interactions makes such violations ok. look at what the police asked the victim in the recent stanford rape case! it's baffling. https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/heres-the-powerful-let... women who wear feminine or even sexual clothing and make-up aren't "sluts who are asking for it".…

The questions at your link were asked during the trial, by the defense attorney.

Skimming, the first conversation with law enforcement is when a deputy informs her she had been assaulted.

(None of that is meant as push back about reporting being difficult, it's just that in that case law enforcement didn't do anything baffling, they rendered assistance to someone who needed it and prosecuted the obvious crime)

Re: “But he does good work.”

#189

Post by mcguire »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #170
bllguo wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly: "Please resist commenting about being downvoted. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading." Sometimes it just happens, there are people who simply disagree. Secondly: this kind of "as long as I'm not doing anything wrong it's fine" attitude is precisely what the commenter was calling out as being not enough.

I disagree on both parts. Downvoting without explaining only stifles communication and smugly reinforces both sides' viewpoints. A downvote IMO should only be used if the comment is brazenly off-topic, offensive, or factually incorrect. As for the second part, someone could be a true angel but never witness any harassment and never have the chance to bring an offender to justice - does that make them a better or wors…

Doesn't that depend on what you mean by "just got along" and "didn't cause these kinds of problems"?

Don't rock the boat? Don't be a narc or a buzzkill? Get a sense of humor?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#190

Post by threatofrain »

panic wrote: post #111
shasta wrote: post #108

Is there really a big problem with acceptable/legal behavior not being agreed upon? Isn't the problem usually that the guy claims "it was consensual?" Similarly, when police consider what a woman was wearing, isn't usually in the context of figuring out who's story they believe? In other words, the police aren't thinking "well, she wore a sexy dress and followed him to his room and therefore deserved to get raped" bu…

What someone is wearing has nothing to do with consent.

If the prosecution, in anticipation of defense strategy, believes that what a person is wearing, among a collection of facts, may be utilized by defense, then of course it's to prosecution advantage to have the police ask first on their terms, as opposed to letting the defense ask these questions on their terms. That way the police and prosecution can control the progression of fact discovery.

It's because prosecutors understand factors to legal victory that clothing, drug use, prior relationship with defendant, and other things like that are relevant.

Speaking descriptively, the job of the police is not to act as some neutral 3rd party of justice and investigate all claims of the truth in proportion to their merit. It is the secondary job of the police to set up cases for the prosecution without regard for defense interests. It is the primary job of all agencies ever to manage organizational credibility, robustness, and scope.

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