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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#51

Post by collyw »

gnaritas wrote: post #39
collyw wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"He should be in jail, there's nothing medieval about separating a rapist from the community." Has he been convicted of rape, or is an article on the internet good enough evidence for you? There is a good reason we have courts a justice system.

There's more than enough evidence for him to have been fired "in that article alone"; of course a rape charge would have to be prosecuted, my saying he should be in jail doesn't mean "without due process". Firing someone however requires no due process, several women complaining about harassment is more than enough.

I hope you never have to server jury duty if that is enough evidence for you.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#52

Post by mordocai »

arenaninja wrote: post #21
kendallpark wrote: post #2

This one of the most disturbing pieces I've read on this topic. Disgusting. "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed."

> "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed." I don't really agree with the quote. Harassment can be too loosely defined. > "It was a close call as to whether his benefits outweighed his liabilities." I disagree with this one more strongly though. I mean from the author's writing, this guy was off-the-charts.

Right, I believe the author's intent was that when you consider something the person is doing to be harassment and you still have a cost benefit analysis about whether to keep them, you have failed.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#53

Post by eutropia »

js8 wrote: post #41
gnaritas wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses. What on earth are you talking about? > If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me. He should be in jail, there's nothing medieval about separating a rapist from the community. Anyone who introduces people to you by lying and saying you give good head in a…

> What on earth are you talking about? Specifically, this: "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed." And this: "When someone harasses, humiliates, discounts, abuses, threatens, stalks, takes action to harm someone, no — they do not do good work." > He should be in jail, there's nothing medieval about separating a rapist from the community. Assuming he is a rapist (he h…

> Specifically, this: "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed."

JA was not essential for Tor's continued survival as a project and a movement. They chose the convenience of a good developer at the cost of his victims. Are you going to personally tell the victims that their sacrifice was worth it, because Tor is better than ever?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#54

Post by js8 »

andrewvc wrote: post #24
js8 wrote: post #8

I disagree with the black and white view of morality that the article espouses. If people do something wrong, they should be punished, but banning them from community entirely seems a little medieval to me. People are human, and sometimes they are complicated, and can do good and bad at the same time.

If someone repeatedly raped and made inappropriate sexual comments about your family members banning them from family events would be considered about the mildest thing you could do. This guy should be in prison for rape. But even disregarding the actual illegal things this guy has done, his other behavior alone disqualifies him from interacting with others in the community, esp. as a community leader.

I agree with that, assuming he is guilty.

On the other hand, it's up to the particular community (or employer) to weight the situation. I don't think doing something illegal should mean that every community should shun you, and it seems to me that's what the article calls for.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#55

Post by ultramancool »

camperman wrote: post #38

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

Yeah, while I'm pretty much willing to believe this just due to the people involved, it is curious that no one has been willing to put their name on an actual rape accusation.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#56

Post by vtlynch »

camperman wrote: post #38

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

Suggesting that the volume of accusations and eyewitness accounts that have been made against Appelbaum may be "false accusations" is a shameful thing to do.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#57

Post by ultramancool »

chaz72 wrote: post #49
camperman wrote: post #38

A blog is no substitute for due process. Appelbaum may be guilty of all of the things he's been accused of, he may be guilty of none of them. Let's see some formal charges, sworn witness statements and court proceedings before we decide. False accusations can and do happen all the time.

No. Jail needs to wait for formal charges, but the community can make its own decisions whether they will accept his behavior - and they may decide they care about things that are both vile and legal, they may use entirely different reasoning than the courts.

This is a great way to make sure you have an unjust community wherein no one has the opportunity to defend themselves and speaking ill of someone is enough to evict them.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#58

Post by infodroid »

Why does it seem like people working in tech have such a hard time keeping their personal and professional lives separate?

I'm not just talking about incidents of poor conduct.

It's also the fact people are exchanging insults and serious accusations over blog posts.

It's not like the observers have the facts and evidence to make fair judgements on these matters.

The whole trial by social media is really embarrassing to the profession.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#59

Post by pjc50 »

moon_of_moon wrote: post #45

Reposting, because at this point two other comments have referenced this flagged comment, therefore it probably has value: "I guess we've reached a point where you can tell when you are looking at establishment-mandated discrediting of a fellow programmer via "community volunteers" aka shills, but are afraid to call it, because you fear you might be next. So I will say it: This is mostly bullshit. If he did something…

Reflagging the comment, because it's wrong in predictable ways.

Firstly, the conspiracy-theory reference to "establishment-mandated"; and secondly peer-to-peer situations are quite full enough of power relations. Especially as between men and women.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#60

Post by MollyR »

infodroid wrote: post #58

Why does it seem like people working in tech have such a hard time keeping their personal and professional lives separate? I'm not just talking about incidents of poor conduct. It's also the fact people are exchanging insults and serious accusations over blog posts. It's not like the observers have the facts and evidence to make fair judgements on these matters. The whole trial by social media is really embarrassing…

Probably because people have been encouraged to think of coworkers as friends or family. My personal suspicion is simply the rise of social media enables mob like behavior over due process and rule of law.
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