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“But he does good work.”

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Re: “But he does good work.”

#151

Post by dpark »

harpastum wrote: post #138
MrZongle2 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable." As another older guy, also happily married, I agree completely. That said, as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry and certainly doesn't practice it.... God , I'm tired of being painted with a broad brus…

The thrust of the grandparent's point was that if you only stand up if people "have issues" with you, you're leaving a bunch of people behind who don't have the power to defend themselves. If you really haven't observed it, you're either not dealing with a large number of people per day, or you're ignoring the issues around you. In my experience, this behavior is pervasive. There are a million reasons why it's hard t…

You missed the other part of his comment: "as someone who hasn't observed behavior like this while in the industry". If you don't see behavior like this, it's hard to stand up against it.

I don't see behavior like this either. I'm fully in favor of standing up against it, but I'm lucky in that I don't work in an environment where this seems to be happening much. I'm sure abuse happens, because it happens everywhere, but if I don't see it I can't really stand up against it. It's one thing to proclaim loudly. It's another to take action. I personally don't have anything to take action against in my current environment.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#152

Post by srtjstjsj »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #143
danso wrote: post #15

I typed this response to a comment that called the OP "mostly bullshit" and that if someone does wrong, it is incumbent upon the victim to file charges or forever hold their peace. The comment was flagged so I couldn't submit what I typed, so I've pasted it here. I agree that it's hard to find black and white in accusations...but I'd argue that even the judicial system leaves more than enough gray to argue over. And…

But sitting and waiting for the problem to resolve is also very stupid and leads to learned helplessness. How would rape problem ever get fixed if there are no cases and no time served? It's a probiel when crime is blamed on "rape culture" rather on a concrete person. That's like accusing everybody but the perpetrator. Making IT community resolve rape cases instead of specific authorities is counterproductive too. I…

It may be ineffective, but it's not "stupid". Most people aren't willing and able to sacrifice themselves to be unsung heroes for a larger cause.

Have you ever had a software system with a bug that only appeared in integration tests, or production environment? Every individual component satisfied its contract tolerably well, or misbehaves but in a way that isn't detectable locally, but the system as a whole has emergent misbehaviors. That's a real problem, not imagined.

See also: Tragedy of the Commons, where bad things happen even when no one individual is clearly solely responsible.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#153

Post by barkingdog »

lusen wrote: post #33

our cultural environment gives us a bias toward downplaying the problem of rape and sexual harassment. i've found this thought experiment helpful in exploring bias: rape is torture. for some it is worse than murder. sexual harassment is aggression. for some it is worse than being punched in the face. how would you feel if someone at your work murdered or punched someone else? how would you feel if there was a systemi…

This is a really lucid explanation of something that is often unnecessarily muddled. Well spoken. To continue going with your thought experiment, how would you feel like if certain kind of people were tortured based on how they were different from you, and it was hard for you to even conceive of what that must feel like for them?

I think a lot of well intentioned folks are in this category. I don't think it's helpful for those folks to be skewered (ala extreme social justice style) for their difficulties. But with that said, it's the sum of their difficulties and those of society at large that may create room for these kinds of situations. I mean, for a very long time, we as a society had ethical arguments for slavery. I don't think it's beyond reason to think that later generations will look at the way survivors of sexual assault are treated by society the way we look at how slaves were once treated with society: shame and wonder at how anyone could let that happen, and yet an uneasiness at realizing that in the context of the historical period, it makes total sense. Humanity is capable of some really unsettling things.

I don't know the details of this particular case, and I would hope (although even courts have difficulties with this) that justice is found in the courts. But I must say, the allegations make my stomach churn precisely because they don't seem unrealistic. I've heard stories and seen folks do things like this with the brazen presumption that no one would stop them. Sadly, they can be right to some extent. I've done what I can to put those situations to a stop (you can only really do it if executive leadership is on your side and also not rotten in the same way the toxic individual is), but the fact remains -- it's a problem, even if it's sometime subtle and hard to notice or do anything about.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#154

Post by smoyer »

mafribe wrote: post #120
smoyer wrote: post #64

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men…

are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? To wit, you wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." this is a blatantly sexist question. What if you are a man being harassed by a woman?

I've admitted I'm old ... I grew up with my father teaching me I should "protect the weaker sex". Note that "Weaker sex" is NOT the same thing as "inferior sex" and my father, to this day, treats my mother as his partner.

Of course, I was also conditioned (thanks Disney) to want to be the knight in shining armor who comes to the aid of the damsel in distress.

So while I intellectually know it applies to everyone, I felt safe admitting that my original sentence contained some stereotypical ideas. And while we're at it, I know plenty of girls and women who could kick my butt - those ladies that fall into that category can feel free to be my knight in shining armor if they see me being harassed.

A funny story from my high-school days - our sociology class was assigned to perform an act that fell outside the social norms. I spent a few hours one day opening the doors for anyone who entered our local mall. One woman (who still went through the open door) asked me if my parents would be embarrassed that they'd raised such a male-chauvinist pig. I have no idea where it came from but my response was "They think they've raised a gentleman - if you'd held the door open for me, I only would have said 'Thank you'". Why is it that I often only think of the clever thing to say minutes or hours after the moment has passed?

Re: “But he does good work.”

#155

Post by mordocai »

ultramancool wrote: post #115
mordocai wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which I don't see anyone doing? Maybe in some other article/blog post but in the one here I see accusations of harassment and brief mentions that others are accusing of rape.

Someone literally did that. https://contraspin.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/mc1.png

I wasn't aware of that, and that was wrong.

However, the blog post discussed here nor anyone in the thread has suggested that that should be done so I'm confused why you are fixated on it.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#156

Post by romanovcode »

smoyer wrote: post #64

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men…

>What's it going to be boys? ... are you willing to step up your game? To behave like men? Or better yet, to become a real gentleman?

Chivalry is dead, and women killed it.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#157

Post by guard-of-terra »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #152
guard-of-terra wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But sitting and waiting for the problem to resolve is also very stupid and leads to learned helplessness. How would rape problem ever get fixed if there are no cases and no time served? It's a probiel when crime is blamed on "rape culture" rather on a concrete person. That's like accusing everybody but the perpetrator. Making IT community resolve rape cases instead of specific authorities is counterproductive too. I…

It may be ineffective, but it's not "stupid". Most people aren't willing and able to sacrifice themselves to be unsung heroes for a larger cause. Have you ever had a software system with a bug that only appeared in integration tests, or production environment? Every individual component satisfied its contract tolerably well, or misbehaves but in a way that isn't detectable locally, but the system as a whole has emerg…

"Most people aren't willing and able to sacrifice themselves to be unsung heroes for a larger cause"

That's the problem. That's why our rights, freedoms and safety (real one, not theatrical) are taken from us, bit by bit, and we're unable to do anything.

Happens for a decade, slowly but surely, before my eyes.

We've got to spend some effort on defense, every one of us.

When you have a bug in integration tests, you shuffle your interactions while it gets fixed. When you have Tragedy of the Commons, you rework your social system until there's no more any Tragedy.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#158

Post by lusen »

mafribe wrote: post #120
smoyer wrote: post #64

From an older guy (and happily married) guy to the male population in tech. If you see behaviors like this and let it happen, you're complicit ... if you're in a position of authority (someone's boss) and you let it happen, you may also be criminally liable. But it's far worse ... what I hope is a small minority of bad actors are defining the definition of male in our culture. Since there's an even smaller number men…

are you willing to step up your game? I'm going to step up: what are you doing concretely to stop dead false accusations? What are you doing to counter the blatant misandry in current harassment laws? To wit, you wrote "If you're a woman being harassed ..." this is a blatantly sexist question. What if you are a man being harassed by a woman?

how much of a problem are false accusations compared to not reporting sexual harassment or rape?

this is a really interesting point worth investigating. i don't have research on hand to link to (though it's fresh on my mind from reading Roxanne Gay's Bad Feminist), but my understanding is that sexual harassment and rape are grossly underreported. false positives is not a huge problem. false negatives are.

by talking about false accusations you are placing greater importance on the suffering of the fewer people who are falsely accused compared to the suffering of the greater people who are falsely silent.

that's fine to intentionally value this, but do consider how this parallels rape culture and the protection of aggressors over the safety of victims. (for offenders, like priests who abused children, become repeat offenders)

as for the fact that men are also harassed and raped, and that male-male and female-female harassment and rape also exist: these are big problems, too, and the silence of the victims is even more complicated, for it doesn't follow the usual victim norm. people want to be heard. they want their problems to be seen and resolved. thus i contend that being heard is the greater problem. not false accusations.

Re: “But he does good work.”

#160

Post by js8 »

dpark wrote: post #67
js8 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What on earth are you talking about? Specifically, this: "When harassment, sexual or otherwise, requires a cost-benefit analysis, you have failed." And this: "When someone harasses, humiliates, discounts, abuses, threatens, stalks, takes action to harm someone, no — they do not do good work." > He should be in jail, there's nothing medieval about separating a rapist from the community. Assuming he is a rapist (he h…

> But even then, he shouldn't be entirely prevented to participate in coding on Tor or political activity or whatever he was doing. You think that if this guy literally raped people he should not be excluded from the community he exploited and damaged? What the fuck, dude? If the stories coming out about this guy are true, then he is dangerous. He should be excluded from the community, not as some sort of vigilante p…

> You think that if this guy literally raped people he should not be excluded from the community he exploited and damaged?

Duh, no, and I already explained my position in other comments. Perhaps I should have written "society" instead of "community" in the original comment, that would have been clearer. Any community should be free to shun him, or not to do it. And community which doesn't shouldn't be called out for not doing it.

Your question is a little loaded, because you assume that the community feels it was damaged. But maybe it doesn't.

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