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American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

theatlantic.com

81–90 of 300 posts

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#81
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't lock up homosexuals but we can lock up pedophiles and zoophiles It's extremely offensive to compare homosexuality to the others. They aren't on the same spectrum, they're categorically different. Homosexuality involves to consenting adults, the others cannot by definition (according to legal and social norms). We can't deny jobs or voting rights to women but we can deny jobs and voting rights to foreigners.…

> the others cannot by definition (according to legal and social norms). Your argument could equally be used to justify criminalizing gay sex as long as it happens in a country where it's illegal and people generally don't like it. But really I'm not talking about sex but about sexuality. That's just what goes on inside people's minds. We aren't even tolerant of that. It's not a crime to be attracted to children but…

Your argument could equally be used to justify criminalizing gay sex as long as it happens in a country where it's illegal and people generally don't like it.

No it can't. It's the notion of consent that is subject to legal interpretation. In a symmetric relationship like homosexuality how would consent apply?

We think it's wrong for employers to advertise "Irish need not apply" but today employers advertise "work permit required" and to get a work permit, you're not allowed to be Irish except for some special cases.

You seem to be missing my point. I'm not saying our categorizations aren't constructed and somewhat arbitrary. They are. What I'm saying is that your comparisons are poorly chosen. It's wise to wonder why we eat cows but not dogs. But a relationship between two consenting adults is not comparable to one between an adult and an animal. If you want to wonder why some farmers prefer sex with goats to sex with sheep, knock yourself out.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#82
post #9

Alternatively, American society values a human's worth by economic output and the economy has shifted to value humans who can successfully navigate the new more intelligence-based economy.

Yes, your value is not based on your intelligence but on your ability to generate economic value.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#83
post #74
post #43

I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe. He's done some amazing journalism with "Dirty Jobs" and his mikeroweWORKS foundation is terrific. He claims that unconditional encouragement toward intellectual dreams does not help most people, and argues that more kids should be pursuing professional trades. This overlaps with one of the better suggestions from this article. In general I think these are hit or miss, and maybe too academ…

At the end of the day say that you paid everyone the same amount of money regardless of whether they worked or did not. And there was no additional way to make money. Maybe there was an additional barter economy where you could work for things that you could then trade for other things. How would that change things. Because now no one would have to work and would only do things if they wanted to do them. And everyone…

> Where everyone literally has the same power over everyone else

I'm sympathetic to these sorts of ideals. I think you've gone too far though. I want Elon Musk to be able to exist. The working world is a lot shittier than it needs to be. It's the ultimate buyer's market. The masses are forced to sell their labor under penalty of death. The owners, however benevolent, know this. They design our jobs with it in the back of their minds. They don't want to acknowledge it directly. They know they've won more power than a meaningless game should grant any person. But I think there's a way to fix even the subtlest (and not so subtle) forms of oppression without reverting to the Harrison Bergeron society. Just guarantee everyone's basic security. I want to be able to work. Both because I like nice things and because I want to contribute to society. But frankly, I'm pretty indignant about having to do it just for my basic safety.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#84
Anti-intellectualism runs deep in American society. Consider the words nerd, wonk, geek, brainiac, college boy, the negative Hollywood stereotypes, etc. The Big Bang Theory is the latest incarnation of that.

My father learned to keep his book collection out of the living room.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#85
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day say that you paid everyone the same amount of money regardless of whether they worked or did not. And there was no additional way to make money. Maybe there was an additional barter economy where you could work for things that you could then trade for other things. How would that change things. Because now no one would have to work and would only do things if they wanted to do them. And everyone…

> Where everyone literally has the same power over everyone else I'm sympathetic to these sorts of ideals. I think you've gone too far though. I want Elon Musk to be able to exist. The working world is a lot shittier than it needs to be. It's the ultimate buyer's market. The masses are forced to sell their labor under penalty of death. The owners, however benevolent, know this. They design our jobs with it in the bac…

http://www.biznews.com/undictated/2015/05/13/elon-musk-the-b...

Elon Musk can be brutal with himself and then he has to convince other people to join him and those who want to experience brutality or know how to be brutal with themselves, to meet his standard will do so. And that's about it. I don't think "forcing" this on the world is a bad thing, as it's more closer to the natural order of things in hunter gatherer societies than what we have right now.

In Harrison Burgeon the problem is not that people are equal. It's that they are forced by the State to be equal. People naturally have their abilities and gifts. That's not the issue. The issue is when they can coerce other people not because of those, but because of money. And make them behave on certain terms that the people never agreed to. The people simply want money so they can maintain a certain class in society.

Yes it will lead to a certain order but I don't see how that order is bad for society as a whole, compared to the current order. Other than well we won't go to space as fast or we won't get X product fast. We'll get there regardless. It's fine that we have shinning super stars, that we put in charge of other people, and we can do things quicker, better, faster, cheaper because of them. But those people actually end up making everyone around them and as a group society as a whole more miserable, to get the product or service based outcome. But I don't think those things would never get done without Elon Musk or Bill Gates or whoever. They would still get done in a different way and slower. And if we're not so brutal with exploiting everything, maybe there is enough time for that. Compare that to exploiting everything at an extremely quick rate and having to come up with solutions to those problems at quicker and quicker rates which just drives everyone and everything bonkers.

It's like I want driving cars and strong AI right now. Well maybe you'll get those things right now and three generations down the line the earth won't be able to support natural life and everything will have to done artificially, and so life and everyone's behavior will be even more closely regulated, because it will all need to be produced and therefore will be owned and sold for profit. I think these are the sorts of trade-offs we're looking at with the way we're running things.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#86
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I experienced the same for being smart in the "wrong neighborhood" in Albuquerque, NM (1990s).

Or in the wrong school. Which of unfortunately causes a revenge of the nerds syndrome.

The movie, 'The Revenge of the Nerds' came out in 1984, after I had left my neighborhood, and for all of its silly comedy, was a sign that things were changing.

My parents and other parents in my poor, working class neighborhood saw education as the way to a better future, not just financially. Intelligence was berated by others in my age group in class. I don't equate education with intelligence, since I have met so many bright people who never finished high school (my father), and so many phDs whose intelligence I question to this day. That piece of paper, a university degree, can be earned with average intelligence, but costs a fortune for most non-public universities. As an acquaintance said to me about his son going to an Ivy league school, 'he's set up for life'. Regardless of his son's IQ, or final GPA, the societal strata he will interact with and form networked connections with, along with the school's reputation, will guarantee him a higher-than-average floor of entry compared to my children. For the record, I am not for that type of education.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#88
post #9

Alternatively, American society values a human's worth by economic output and the economy has shifted to value humans who can successfully navigate the new more intelligence-based economy.

Yes, your value is not based on your intelligence but on your ability to generate economic value.

Human worth is intrinsic and absolute. It depends on nothing and is granted simply for existing. It cannot be taken away. The commission of crimes will result in a loss of freedoms and rights, but not human worth.

Economic value however is not meaningless. It represents a measure of contribution to the capital engine that powers our lives. The whole system however is completely unfair and biased since the actual economic value created by workers is not realized by them. Workers create value that companies could not survive without but these companies do not then redistribute gains from that value in commensurate with the work done.

As such I don't have a problem with us looking at being able to generate economic value as meaningful, I have a problem with the skewed system that distributes the rewards and opportunities unfairly.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#89
post #64

I disagree. American society has always had something of a love-hate relationship with intelligence, and there have always been examples like _Big Bang Theory_ venerating intelligence ('Sputnik moment' and astronauts, anyone?). Intelligence correlates with success cross-culturally and over time, so that's not in question. What is in question is the 'increasingly'; the only evidence offered, aside from anecdote, is th…

I'm curious if more recent data would disagree at all with this. I agree the whole 1950s as some sort of turning point (or near to) is likely false based on the meta-analysis you linked but I find the idea that this started taking off in the 21st century to be a plausible hypothesis.

Another thing to consider is that though actual correlation with success may not have changed, the cultural attitudes surrounding it may still have. My high school years were in the late 2000s, and although my elementary/middle school years lent credence to the "nerds get beat up by jocks" cultural cliche, my experience (and that of many other nerds) in high school was not anything like what I expected. Not only that, but the nerd/jock divide was blurred to the point of being essentially non-existent. A lot of the people on our championship-winning football team were at the top of our class, and definitely not by virtue of the teachers just passing them because of pressure from on high. This doesn't seem to be such an uncommon experience for my generation.

On a more subjective note, I actually find the attitude aspect to be the more detestable one. One can defend intelligence being correlated with success from a lot of at least not totally evil viewpoints: it makes sense to have more intellectually skilled people in jobs requiring more intellectual skill, intelligence requires some level of cultivation so there should be incentives to do so, etc. But while the social carrot has some arguments that start from acceptable terminal values, the social stick does not. I would be very surprised to learn that chastising people for being stupid across the board made them (or anyone else) smarter. The only motivation I can only see for it is purely egotistical.

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