American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth • Hacker News Board

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#51

Post by omonra » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #48

defen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a refutation of the article, unless you think that 50s-style "integrity, work ethic, and a knack for getting along" hiring practices inherently preclude women/non-whites/non-straight/non-Christian people. Your comment reads like you're just trying to score cheap diversity points against the standards of 60 years ago instead of engaging with the point of the article.

What actually matters is perception of "integrity, work ethic, and a knack for getting along", because people can only make decisions based on their perceptions. Many* assert that the 1950s was a time when people widely believed that Negroes were shiftless, Queers were deviant, and women were hysterical. If you believe this, then it is natural to conclude that a Black man needed to be twice as hardworking in order to…

So basically nothing good ever happened before NOW because people held views you disagree with today.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#52

Post by dopu » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

selectron wrote: post #29

I don't have any problems with a society that is a meritocracy. This article is nonsense. If anyone wonders why so many people don't like political correctness just point them to this article.

Your comment adds nothing of worth to the discussion. So what if you don't see any problems with meritocracy? Explain why you feel that way.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#53

Post by nononosisisi » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

ianai wrote: post #27

eggy wrote: post #18

I grew up in a poor, working class, crime-ridden neighborhood of Brooklyn in the 1970s, and I remember being smart as a kid was a reason to harass, and sometimes beat on somebody who was seen as too smart in class. This wasn't happening in the wealthier, more educated neighborhoods in NYC (I had friends there afterwards). Although, all parents wanted their kids to exceed in both areas. I think there was also some ang…

I experienced the same for being smart in the "wrong neighborhood" in Albuquerque, NM (1990s).

Or in the wrong school. Which of unfortunately causes a revenge of the nerds syndrome.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#54

Post by valhalla » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:31 AM UTC

douche wrote: post #32

krauthammer2 wrote: post #26

The very intelligent traditional men are the ones under attack in America. The stupid are not directly under attack. The stupid are under attack indirectly, because the true leaders of society are under attack. The evidence of this can be seen in all of the crumbling cities in America. Even Noam Chomsky, a renowned liberal, admits that America is in a decline. Understanding the reason can start with understanding tha…

I expect to see this downvoted into oblivion, but you're not wrong. Men have a wider distribution of intelligence than women, so you end up with more male retards and more male geniuses. The bell curve is real.

Steven Pinker wrote about the distribution you mention in 2002 in the "Blank Slate". I'd highly recommend it to anyone who's interested in neuroscience and assumptions about human nature that underly political discourse in this country.

It's remarkably relevant even though it's over a decade old

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#55

Post by serge2k » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:37 AM UTC

throwaway1923 wrote: post #46

serge2k wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you think that 50s-style "integrity, work ethic, and a knack for getting along" hiring practices inherently preclude women/non-whites/non-straight/non-Christian people. You don't?

TIL integrity and work ethic are sexist or racist.

> knack for getting along

we dont think a black man can get along here.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#56

Post by BuckRogers » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:39 AM UTC

That's a huge improvement over where we were a few years ago, when Steve Jobs died and I noted all the human misery and pain he caused with his employment of Foxconn sweatshops.

My coworker said Jobs' life was worth more than those factory workers. I reminded him that everyone has equal worth and he seemed stunned at my forceful response. Noting that your life has to feel pretty hopeless to jump out the window of the factory you work/live in.

I guess being a do-well white boy in Chicago afforded him quite the luxury of deciding the world pecking order. Except I was also a white boy in Chicago calling him out on it. Considering we had multiple 2nd generation immigrant coworkers around us, who should in theory empathize with 3rd world work conditions, I was the only one who spoke up.

Probably because the Steve Jobs > all guy was a fairly influential architect. But almost nothing stops me from piping up anyway. Still, judging human worth over intelligence is definitely a bit better than judging based on entrepreneurial capacity as my colleague was.

Maybe in a couple more years we'll all agree that humanity has equal worth and dignity. Then all life, and we'll be set.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#57

Post by throw2016 » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:40 AM UTC

American society worships financial success and the mythology of supermen and superwomen to the exclusion of nearly everything else and this extracts a huge price in the individual and social sense of well being.

Since capitalism will rarely allow more than 20-30% 'success' that leaves a huge percentage of your population feeling inadequate.

Sometimes it feels the focus on individual brilliance without context of social value impoverishes rather than nourishes.

It can induce an adversorial state of hyper competition, in and out groups and a heightening state of frenzy to belong that leaves little room for niceties like empathy and community.

The folklore of America's success reinforces the mythology of individual brilliance, but rational heads need to question without taking away from individual brilliance in the past, now or the neccessity of it in the future, the benefits of the colononization of an entire continent.

The downside to this single minded focus is the simple fact that individuals are disempowered. They cannot effect any change. It takes real community and society to effect even the smallest change and that requires a functioning social setup with community, cooperation, empathy and mutual respect. Any communal action will require large numbers of americans to cooperate for instance protests or activism, at that point americans will discover their social structure does not allow for it and will not deliver. There is very little if any sense of community. It's been engineered out. It's unlikely individuals who have been devalued and left feeling worthless will make common cause in a hyper adversorial social structure.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#58

Post by technobabble » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:42 AM UTC

tbabb wrote: post #35

duaneb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the new more intelligence-based economy. Was intelligence not valued before?

In an economy where work is increasingly automated, those humans who can do things which machines can't are finding themselves more valued. That seems expected, and I am not convinced it is indicative of any problem or unfairness.

How will actual automation impact small and in some cases medium-sized businesses? If I'm running a restaurant chain with 2-3 locations, does it make economic sense to employ robotic sweepers and chefs? Granted that won't replace all jobs lost, manual labor would still be valued in such areas.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#59

Post by solipsism » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:42 AM UTC

Hondor wrote: post #47

It makes a valuable point that our popular culture that we think makes us "civilized" is really just a sham and we're no different from olden-days racists and homophobes but with a few extra rules applied. We're very careful not to abuse people because of their race, religion or certain types of sexuality, but for all the non-taboo classes of people, the gloves are off and we're no different from slave owners who jus…

We can't lock up homosexuals but we can lock up pedophiles and zoophiles

It's extremely offensive to compare homosexuality to the others. They aren't on the same spectrum, they're categorically different. Homosexuality involves to consenting adults, the others cannot by definition (according to legal and social norms).

We can't deny jobs or voting rights to women but we can deny jobs and voting rights to foreigners.

Consider that this method of constructing comparisons is ridiculously arbitrary and creates a slippery slope. "We fish with worms but not with Chinese. Therefore no morals!" Huh?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#60

Post by Hondor » Sat, Jun 18, 2016, 2:45 AM UTC

nononosisisi wrote: post #50

Hondor wrote: post #47

It makes a valuable point that our popular culture that we think makes us "civilized" is really just a sham and we're no different from olden-days racists and homophobes but with a few extra rules applied. We're very careful not to abuse people because of their race, religion or certain types of sexuality, but for all the non-taboo classes of people, the gloves are off and we're no different from slave owners who jus…

I don't think it will ever be ok to be a pedophile which unfortunately you seem to imply it should be ok. Even back then lots of people knew slavery was wrong but could not do much about.

It's hard to make an argument against pedophilia (as a sexuality) which doesn't also argue against homosexuality.

Of course gay men raping other men is bad and is still a crime, just as adults raping children is bad. But that's not what contemporary culture says. It says it's wrong to be sexually attracted to children even without causing any harm.

There were cultures in history where sex with children was accepted, such as the Romans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty#The_Romans but they recognized that it was harmful to the child so it was limited to slaves and other people who they didn't care about.