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American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

theatlantic.com

61–70 of 300 posts

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#61
post #47

It makes a valuable point that our popular culture that we think makes us "civilized" is really just a sham and we're no different from olden-days racists and homophobes but with a few extra rules applied. We're very careful not to abuse people because of their race, religion or certain types of sexuality, but for all the non-taboo classes of people, the gloves are off and we're no different from slave owners who jus…

We can't lock up homosexuals but we can lock up pedophiles and zoophiles It's extremely offensive to compare homosexuality to the others. They aren't on the same spectrum, they're categorically different. Homosexuality involves to consenting adults, the others cannot by definition (according to legal and social norms). We can't deny jobs or voting rights to women but we can deny jobs and voting rights to foreigners.…

> the others cannot by definition (according to legal and social norms).

Your argument could equally be used to justify criminalizing gay sex as long as it happens in a country where it's illegal and people generally don't like it. But really I'm not talking about sex but about sexuality. That's just what goes on inside people's minds. We aren't even tolerant of that. It's not a crime to be attracted to children but it's certainly ground to be abused by otherwise moral people.

I'm not comparing fish with Chinese. I'm comparing one group of humans with another. You could choose Americans and Chinese. How is it that we can ban members of one group from working for money but not the other? Of course this sounds ridiculous seen through the lens of current culture, but that's my point. We're so immersed in our culture that we can't see its hypocrisies.

We think it's wrong for employers to advertise "Irish need not apply" but today employers advertise "work permit required" and to get a work permit, you're not allowed to be Irish except for some special cases.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#62
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a refutation of the article, unless you think that 50s-style "integrity, work ethic, and a knack for getting along" hiring practices inherently preclude women/non-whites/non-straight/non-Christian people. Your comment reads like you're just trying to score cheap diversity points against the standards of 60 years ago instead of engaging with the point of the article.

What actually matters is perception of "integrity, work ethic, and a knack for getting along", because people can only make decisions based on their perceptions. Many* assert that the 1950s was a time when people widely believed that Negroes were shiftless, Queers were deviant, and women were hysterical. If you believe this, then it is natural to conclude that a Black man needed to be twice as hardworking in order to…

That's still utterly irrelevant to the article. Unless your claim is that the increased workforce participation from reduced discrimination today inherently leads to a "war on stupid people". Otherwise it's just a nitpick on a small point that doesn't detract from the article and invites off-topic comments like mine.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#63
post #32

The very intelligent traditional men are the ones under attack in America. The stupid are not directly under attack. The stupid are under attack indirectly, because the true leaders of society are under attack. The evidence of this can be seen in all of the crumbling cities in America. Even Noam Chomsky, a renowned liberal, admits that America is in a decline. Understanding the reason can start with understanding tha…

I expect to see this downvoted into oblivion, but you're not wrong. Men have a wider distribution of intelligence than women, so you end up with more male retards and more male geniuses. The bell curve is real.

The statement "men have higher quantitative reasoning ability than women" seems to only take into account one side of the bell curve.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#64
I disagree. American society has always had something of a love-hate relationship with intelligence, and there have always been examples like _Big Bang Theory_ venerating intelligence ('Sputnik moment' and astronauts, anyone?). Intelligence correlates with success cross-culturally and over time, so that's not in question.

What is in question is the 'increasingly'; the only evidence offered, aside from anecdote, is that the returns from education have increased. This is inadequate. The research literature I'm aware of (http://www.gwern.net/Embryo%20selection#iqincome-bibliograph...) shows that intelligence has consistently been correlated with SES/income/occupation and it's not that clear it has been increasing at all. Particularly relevant is Strenze 2007, "Intelligence and socioeconomic success: A meta-analytic review of longitudinal research" http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Intelligence-... who says:

> Several studies have investigated changes in the association between intelligence and success during past decades. Although Herrnstein and Murray concluded that “ the main point seems beyond dispute ” (1994: 52) and some studies have found support for this point ( Murnane, Willett, & Levy, 1995 ), there are still serious reasons to doubt that the importance of intelligence is or has been growing. Neither the meta-analysis by Bowles et al. (2001) nor the review by Jencks et al. (1979) found any clear trend in the correlations between intelligence and success. The same conclusion was reached by Flynn (2004) and Hauser and Huang (1997) . Breen and Goldthorpe (2001) found that the association between intelligence and occupational status in England is, if anything, declining

Strenze's own meta-analytic results using ~44 studies are on pg13 Table 2, where the correlation of intelligence with education/occupation/income over the 20th century show no clear pattern of increase or decrease:

> The influence of the third moderator variable, year of success (i.e., year of the measurement of success), is analyzed in the third section of Table 2 . Year of success ranges from 1929 to 2003 in the present meta-analysis. Judging by the sample size weighted corrected correlations ( p ), there appears to be no historical trend for any one of the moderator variables: correlations with education and occupation remain more or less stable throughout the period under study; correlations with income fluctuate more but without any obvious direction. Quite surprisingly, if unweighted and uncorrected correlations ( r ) are observed instead, then the correlations with education and occupation exhibit a declining trend.

So, if American society 'increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth' and 'as recently as the 1950s, possessing only middling intelligence was not likely to severely limit your life’s trajectory', why are the more intelligent, if anything, less likely to be successful when we go from 1920 to 2000?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#65
post #35
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the new more intelligence-based economy. Was intelligence not valued before?

In an economy where work is increasingly automated, those humans who can do things which machines can't are finding themselves more valued. That seems expected, and I am not convinced it is indicative of any problem or unfairness.

The unfairness component comes from your genetics and upbringing, both outside your control - some combinations are better suited to navigate this economy than others.

So what do we as a society do with those at a disadvantage, sometimes severe (eg IQ below 90?) we can move toward finding ways to include them, or we can move toward excluding them. The problem from the article is a societal one trend toward exclusion, not economic as you pointed out.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#66
post #47

It makes a valuable point that our popular culture that we think makes us "civilized" is really just a sham and we're no different from olden-days racists and homophobes but with a few extra rules applied. We're very careful not to abuse people because of their race, religion or certain types of sexuality, but for all the non-taboo classes of people, the gloves are off and we're no different from slave owners who jus…

So from your eyes, everyone is equal? Rofl.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#67

I'm having difficulty reconciling this claim with how I see American society judging the worth of political candidates. (Also in the journalistic outlets American society values the most.)

People tend to overestimate their own competence (and I suppose intelligence), so they must also see anyone who agrees with them as being of high intelligence too. That means we think the politicians we vote for are smart. It's just the ones other people vote for that aren't.

Nobody will say "I want X but I'm not very smart so the politician who promises X is also not very smart and I won't vote for him."

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1274952/Men-ARE-br... http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/12/04/the-sexodus-part-...

Linking Breitbart and the Dailymail is... well, exactly the sort of thing I expected you would do.

Not sure if that is relevant. Source should not be important if the facts match reality.

Some social scientists observed that women tend to choose lower-risk decisions compared to men that are pressured to take higher risks with immense payouts (rare) or complete disasters (frequent). So these two strategies yield different results - women have a smaller variance, i.e. there are less women at the top and less at the bottom of the society. For men, there are many more men at the top but almost the whole bottom tier consists of men.

There is also the theoretical notion of hypergamy, i.e. women never marrying anyone below them on social ladder and shooting for the top 10-20% of men, so the higher status they achieve, the lower dating pool is available to them. Complementarily, the higher status a man achieves, the bigger his dating pool becomes due to aforementioned hypergamy effect. Frankly, I am not sure how true this is but perhaps can be used as a heuristics while looking at current state of gender relations.

So the question is how to motivate women to take immense risks in order to achieve what traditionally men do and how to persuade them to date down. Any ideas?

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#69
Sortition[1] (randomly selecting from the population for government positions) combined with direct democracy where possible would fundamentally address problems of inequality regardless of their source. Meritocracy, plutocracy, nepotism--you'll end up with a small group of people in power in any system unless the system is carefully designed to prevent it.

Put another way, the article mentions several possible measures to try to provide for better outcomes for everyone who isn't "smart"; these are bandaids for cancer. These are top-down methods for "the elite" in various forms to provide for "everyone else" so that the have-nots have at least enough to avoid offending the sensibilities of the powerful. If fairness is a genuine concern and central goal for a society, then positions of power should be filled by a statistically representative sample of the population. Until then, inequality will be the status quo.

As I see it, the primary benefit in this specific situation (technological unemployment or underemployment for the "not smart enough") would be faster reaction time. You might see similar solutions to those proposed in this article, but you wouldn't have to wait for people like Mike Rowe to write about problems of inequality (and you wouldn't have to wait even longer for people in positions of power to decide to do something). Random selection would produce many people who deeply care about the "not smart" because that describes about 50% of the people selected and many people they personally know.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#70
post #39
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the new more intelligence-based economy. Was intelligence not valued before?

Not so much when you live in a manual labor driven economy, like the US was for a very long time.

A large part of the economy is still labor driven and will be. Many infrastructure tasks such as complex welding(possibly the job where automation has happened the most) are still outside the realm of full automation.
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