Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

thenational.scot

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 72 posts

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#41

Post by 086421357909764 »

hobs wrote: post #24
buttcoin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except you can't prove that. Are they going to directly say, Satelite XYZ in geostationary orbit was monitoring data link 111322, during which we captured intelligence on platform 2342342 which resulted in a lead then passed on to domestic intelligence agencies. Nope, not going to happen. Everyone here likes to talk about the government and their parallel construction when it supports a negative notion, yet forget th…

There is no need to prove someone's claim false, they must prove it true. eg: Except that the government has claimed that they have foiled attacks and those claims have been shown to be bullshit. So, given that they have made these claims and they are false, what conclusions should we draw? A. The government gave us false information to reassure us that their blanket information gathering programs work, they cant tel…

Should by your own logic of There is no need to prove someone's claim false, they must prove it true." apply to their comment to?

Just trying to understand as Point A and B lack the same evidence.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#42

Post by 086421357909764 »

gaius wrote: post #29
dasunbekannte wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you tear down the FVEY agencies. Enemy nations can then go rampant. If we collect, then it's obvious they must as well and they have less laws than we do limiting what we can do. Having been on both sides, it is difficult to see the good they are doing, because they are shrouded in secrecy due to necessity.

Enemy nations can then go rampant. Let them. I've never been to I dunno, North Korea, I have no plans to go there, let them know whatever they like about me. It's a problem however when a government that DOES have some say over my life does it.

The problem is you can't control countries or ideologies by a border so that approach simply doesn't work.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#43

Post by 086421357909764 »

tr1ck5t3r wrote: post #33

https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrori... Until people stop supporting hierarchical power structures, ie voting for presidents, working for a company where there's a single boss at the top and so on, using only a limited number of sources to obtain your data (ie media) which fuels your bias making your knees jerk and the current implementation of the financial system, people will always distrust…

Then how can you trust the intercepts cherry picking of the documents trove snowden took?

My argument is it's pretty ballsy to call people out about transparency knowing they can't argue and that there are likely contradictions or at least further details being omitted by hand selecting documents for dissemination. It's really the same issue on both sides. Neither are telling the whole story.

I would argue your comment "Its all too easy to give out just enough info to get people chasing after the wrong thing." is a correct statement for both sides.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#44

Post by rl3 »

hackenthorpe wrote: post #40
rl3 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who disagrees with you must either be joking or astroturfing? How impolite. More like anyone who creates two fresh accounts within minutes of each other, one replying to the other in agreement—is either astroturfing, or trying to make it appear as if they are. Personally, I think you're just a decent troll. If so, at least it was creative.

There was nothing trollish at all in my earlier comment - you just wish not to believe it.

>There was nothing trollish at all in my earlier comment - you just wish not to believe it.

You're correct in that I do not wish to believe that astroturfing either directly or indirectly commissioned by GCHQ could be so incompetent. It sullies their good name.

Granted, what you're doing would actually qualify as somewhat competent if the goal was to simply to derail meaningful discourse.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#45

Post by hackenthorpe »

rl3 wrote: post #44
hackenthorpe wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was nothing trollish at all in my earlier comment - you just wish not to believe it.

> There was nothing trollish at all in my earlier comment - you just wish not to believe it. You're correct in that I do not wish to believe that astroturfing either directly or indirectly commissioned by GCHQ could be so incompetent. It sullies their good name. Granted, what you're doing would actually qualify as somewhat competent if the goal was to simply to derail meaningful discourse.

All these accusations of trolling and astroturfing are completely off topic. If anyone is trying to derail the discussion here, it's you.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#46

Post by handedness »

gaius wrote: post #29
dasunbekannte wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you tear down the FVEY agencies. Enemy nations can then go rampant. If we collect, then it's obvious they must as well and they have less laws than we do limiting what we can do. Having been on both sides, it is difficult to see the good they are doing, because they are shrouded in secrecy due to necessity.

Enemy nations can then go rampant. Let them. I've never been to I dunno, North Korea, I have no plans to go there, let them know whatever they like about me. It's a problem however when a government that DOES have some say over my life does it.

That weaponizes–as if it hasn't been already–personal data collection.

Collect data on a foreign nation's citizens, preferably the only global hegemon, which also happens to have internal constraints on what it can collect on its own citizens.

Then play Let's Make a Deal. Trade personal data for foreign aid, arms deals, oppression of rivals, etc.

Anyone on the planet should be concerned about personal data collection by anyone else on the planet, whether that be North Korea, Google, or anyone else.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#47

Post by barry-cotter »

jonnybgood wrote: post #38
pjc50 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only there will you find real answers .. which it's illegal to tell anyone else. And if you find evidence of abuse the only way you can do anything about it is to flee to a country from which you can't be extradited. This is why we can't have a discussion about this and as much as possible needs to be moved from "intelligence" (secret, unaccountable) to "evidence" in courts. The only sensible answer to "how many terr…

> And if you find evidence of abuse the only way you can do anything about it is to flee to a country from which you can't be extradited. Not true. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Binney_(U.S._intelli...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake

At the July sentencing hearing the presiding judge, Richard D. Bennett of the Federal District Court, issued harsh words for the government, saying that it was "unconscionable" to charge a defendant with a list of serious crimes that could have resulted in 35 years in prison only to drop all of the major charges on the eve of trial.[61] The judge also rejected the government's request for a large fine noting that Drake had been financially devastated, losing his $154,600 job at the NSA and his pension.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#48

Post by 086421357909764 »

hackenthorpe wrote: post #45
rl3 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was nothing trollish at all in my earlier comment - you just wish not to believe it. You're correct in that I do not wish to believe that astroturfing either directly or indirectly commissioned by GCHQ could be so incompetent. It sullies their good name. Granted, what you're doing would actually qualify as somewhat competent if the goal was to simply to derail meaningful discourse.

All these accusations of trolling and astroturfing are completely off topic. If anyone is trying to derail the discussion here, it's you.

it seems like a lot of people here are in a feedback loop, only upvoting / listening to what they think fits. Everyone's quick to believe they know it all, when in fact that is the very issue the arguments are about.

I get why you used a throw away. I'm not against civil discussions, I just hate when people don't use logic and take all evidence with a grain of salt. I don't for a second doubt parts of the govt. are hiding valid evidence for the conversation any more than the media is lying to sell their narrative too. Bottom line is the media has the upperhand, they can make baseless claims and choose what to say knowing damn well that the Govt. can't refute it.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#49

Post by hobs »

086421357909764 wrote: post #41
hobs wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no need to prove someone's claim false, they must prove it true. eg: Except that the government has claimed that they have foiled attacks and those claims have been shown to be bullshit. So, given that they have made these claims and they are false, what conclusions should we draw? A. The government gave us false information to reassure us that their blanket information gathering programs work, they cant tel…

Should by your own logic of There is no need to prove someone's claim false, they must prove it true." apply to their comment to? Just trying to understand as Point A and B lack the same evidence.

All claims need evidence to support them, its just that the poster said that the government is doing great work, too bad we cant show or prove that they are(citation needed, big time.)

There is no need to argue for balance in the discussion to protect our government, they clearly can operate these programs without our approval or understanding.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#50

Post by selimthegrim »

pastProlog wrote: post #17
dasunbekannte wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you tear down the FVEY agencies. Enemy nations can then go rampant. If we collect, then it's obvious they must as well and they have less laws than we do limiting what we can do. Having been on both sides, it is difficult to see the good they are doing, because they are shrouded in secrecy due to necessity.

The US did shut down its WWI-era spying in 1929. The (Republican!) Secretary State did so with the simple comment "Gentlemen do not read each other's mail". > Enemy nations can then go rampant The main enemy of the FVEY agencies has always been the population of the FVEY countries. This goes back a long time - in the era that US Republicans actually did believe in smaller government and Stimson was shutting down the…

A movie was made about the Boyce case, The Falcon and the Snowman.
Post reply on HN