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Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

thenational.scot

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Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#31

Post by notahacker »

duncanawoods wrote: post #13
Velox wrote: post #9

One of the more concerning matters on this is that the BBC, for some reason, are choosing not to report on this at all. Gone are the days when the BBC were the most trusted and reputable news source. http://www.bbc.com/news/scotland

Meh. Its not clear to me this is news - its secondary reporting about an Intercept article that doesn't appear on the intercept front page nor on any other Scottish newspaper.

And it's not even the main theme of the Intercept article, which focuses far more on the intelligence agencies collecting far more data than they actually had the capability to use and failing to read harvested emails of identified suspects. https://theintercept.com/2016/06/07/mi5-gchq-digint-surveill...

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#32

Post by Zenst »

hackenthorpe wrote: post #11
dasunbekannte wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you tear down the FVEY agencies. Enemy nations can then go rampant. If we collect, then it's obvious they must as well and they have less laws than we do limiting what we can do. Having been on both sides, it is difficult to see the good they are doing, because they are shrouded in secrecy due to necessity.

Indeed. It's true to say that there would have been a lot more terrorist attacks, and more serious organised crime, were our security services not using the bulk surveillance data sets for their analyses. Of course, none of the details can be revealed for operational reasons, so the more paranoid fill in the blanks with 1984-style dystopian fantasy. It's unfortunate, as they really are doing good work.

It is frustrating as I call it schrodinger's terrorist, why, well, say everybody is in a box.

now you do not know if that person in a box is a terrorist or not and by terrorist, a bad person who will impact others right to life.

So not knowing you can only tell if you look in a box, well if they are not and you look you are lambasted, if you look and they are then your just doing your job.

Now from a PR perspective, it gets down to let us not look as if they are not we get lots of people upset at us, and bad media more so if we get it right.

Which is fine but with one cavet, if you do not look and they are a terrorist then that box can go off and take out all the boxes around it.

So I call it schrodingers terrorist in a box and with that, you see the perspective more clearly.

That is why they look, and yes for those who are not terrorists/bad people it can be intrusive, but most if not all will not even know they are looking. Though many presume the worst and equally it is that mentality of the populous that also carries on in the security services and mentality of presume the worst, hence they look.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#33

Post by tr1ck5t3r »

https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrori...

Until people stop supporting hierarchical power structures, ie voting for presidents, working for a company where there's a single boss at the top and so on, using only a limited number of sources to obtain your data (ie media) which fuels your bias making your knees jerk and the current implementation of the financial system, people will always distrust new faces in the neighbourhood, foreigners in "enemy" countries and so on.

Its all too easy to give out just enough info to get people chasing after the wrong thing. Misdirection is one of the key elements of the spooks work in order to maintain secrecy.

Trust is the key element here, how can trust something done in secret?

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#34

Post by hackenthorpe »

rl3 wrote: post #26

> ... and more serious organised crime, were our security services not using the bulk surveillance data ... In the unlikely case these aren't pranks, they would almost certainly be GCHQ astroturfing accounts. Of course, the astroturfing itself is of so poor quality that they probably outsourced the job to either some apathetic social media/perception management firm, or clueless interns. I could easily see a social e…

Anyone who disagrees with you must either be joking or astroturfing? How impolite.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#35

Post by rl3 »

hackenthorpe wrote: post #34
rl3 wrote: post #26

> ... and more serious organised crime, were our security services not using the bulk surveillance data ... In the unlikely case these aren't pranks, they would almost certainly be GCHQ astroturfing accounts. Of course, the astroturfing itself is of so poor quality that they probably outsourced the job to either some apathetic social media/perception management firm, or clueless interns. I could easily see a social e…

Anyone who disagrees with you must either be joking or astroturfing? How impolite.

>Anyone who disagrees with you must either be joking or astroturfing? How impolite.

More like anyone who creates two fresh accounts within minutes of each other, one replying to the other in agreement—is either astroturfing, or trying to make it appear as if they are.

Personally, I think you're just a decent troll. If so, at least it was creative.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#36

Post by nitrogen »

Zenst wrote: post #32
hackenthorpe wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. It's true to say that there would have been a lot more terrorist attacks, and more serious organised crime, were our security services not using the bulk surveillance data sets for their analyses. Of course, none of the details can be revealed for operational reasons, so the more paranoid fill in the blanks with 1984-style dystopian fantasy. It's unfortunate, as they really are doing good work.

It is frustrating as I call it schrodinger's terrorist, why, well, say everybody is in a box. now you do not know if that person in a box is a terrorist or not and by terrorist, a bad person who will impact others right to life. So not knowing you can only tell if you look in a box, well if they are not and you look you are lambasted, if you look and they are then your just doing your job. Now from a PR perspective,…

But this argument ignores the original probability of a random person being a terrorist. It is a gross violation of the trust necessary to maintain a republic.

And further arguing that it's okay because most people won't know they were violated is like saying a plastic surgeon is justified in violating every unconscious patient in surgery just in case they would have wanted it anyway. Not a good direction for society to go.

The apologists are out in full force on this thread.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#37

Post by ksrm »

hackenthorpe wrote: post #34
rl3 wrote: post #26

> ... and more serious organised crime, were our security services not using the bulk surveillance data ... In the unlikely case these aren't pranks, they would almost certainly be GCHQ astroturfing accounts. Of course, the astroturfing itself is of so poor quality that they probably outsourced the job to either some apathetic social media/perception management firm, or clueless interns. I could easily see a social e…

Anyone who disagrees with you must either be joking or astroturfing? How impolite.

Come on though, you're not even trying. You created this account purely to post in this thread, at exactly the same time as did another account.

Better luck next time.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#38

Post by jonnybgood »

pjc50 wrote: post #27
dasunbekannte wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speak from the POV of my country (left unnamed), but I encourage anyone wanting truly interesting work to apply to your country's SIGINT agency. Only there will you find real answers.

Only there will you find real answers .. which it's illegal to tell anyone else. And if you find evidence of abuse the only way you can do anything about it is to flee to a country from which you can't be extradited. This is why we can't have a discussion about this and as much as possible needs to be moved from "intelligence" (secret, unaccountable) to "evidence" in courts. The only sensible answer to "how many terr…

> And if you find evidence of abuse the only way you can do anything about it is to flee to a country from which you can't be extradited.

Not true.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Binney_(U.S._intelli...

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#39

Post by AlexCoventry »

astronautjones wrote: post #30
pastProlog wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US did shut down its WWI-era spying in 1929. The (Republican!) Secretary State did so with the simple comment "Gentlemen do not read each other's mail". > Enemy nations can then go rampant The main enemy of the FVEY agencies has always been the population of the FVEY countries. This goes back a long time - in the era that US Republicans actually did believe in smaller government and Stimson was shutting down the…

Great comment. Can you recommend any further reading?

Tim Weiner's history of the FBI's intelligence operations, Enemies.

Re: Snowden reveals GCHQ spy programme with link to Scottish police

#40

Post by hackenthorpe »

rl3 wrote: post #35
hackenthorpe wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who disagrees with you must either be joking or astroturfing? How impolite.

> Anyone who disagrees with you must either be joking or astroturfing? How impolite. More like anyone who creates two fresh accounts within minutes of each other, one replying to the other in agreement—is either astroturfing, or trying to make it appear as if they are. Personally, I think you're just a decent troll. If so, at least it was creative.

There was nothing trollish at all in my earlier comment - you just wish not to believe it.
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