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Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

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Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#181

Post by cmdrfred »

50CNT wrote: post #32

That is physically revolting. First you have civil-asset forfeiture that let's police seize money from you when you are carrying large amounts of cash (with a generous false positive rate potentially disastrous to victims). Now to get around that, you could try handling everything by card or bank transaction (unless you're one of the unfortunate few without access to a bank account due to low credit rating or other l…

Last revolution was the civil war. The people at the top forgot what the people at the bottom are capable of.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#182

Post by cmdrfred »

zacharycohn wrote: post #63
maxaf wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I've had a fraudulent charge on my account, I've contested it and had the money returned to me. I can only assume that in some cases the bank simply bites the bullet and writes this off as a cost of doing business. There's probably an upper limit to their general benevolence. Given enough fraud-like losses stemming from asset seizure, the reasonable action would be to simply block the charges before they c…

This is not a fraudulent charge, though. It's perfectly legal, under state law.

The constitution trumps state law. This is illegal everywhere in the US.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#183

Post by snuxoll »

tremon wrote: post #137
Shivetya wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when you are pulled over you turn the phone OFF. Its simple and its fast.

On the other hand, when I'm pulled over, I definitely want my phone to be recording audio.

Agreed. Opening the settings and disabling the fingerprint scanner would be easier and allow you to still use the device to record audio.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#184

Post by snuxoll »

cmdrfred wrote: post #182
zacharycohn wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a fraudulent charge, though. It's perfectly legal, under state law.

The constitution trumps state law. This is illegal everywhere in the US.

Yes, and this would fall under the 4th amendment, but until it makes it to the SCOTUS the practice is going to be alive and well.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#185

Post by cmdrfred »

snuxoll wrote: post #184
cmdrfred wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitution trumps state law. This is illegal everywhere in the US.

Yes, and this would fall under the 4th amendment, but until it makes it to the SCOTUS the practice is going to be alive and well.

True but it will always be illegal.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#186

Post by random28345 »

tantalor wrote: post #179
rlpb wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which pits the bank against a warrantless seizure that's impossible to defend in court Your argument could equally be applied against regular (cash) civil asset forfeiture. The outcome is the same either way. "Sorry, it was authorised by the authorities, nothing we can do". You'll be short of the money until you sue, same as in regular civil asset forfeiture. When you do sue, you'll have to prove that you're entitl…

> it was authorised by the authorities It was not authorized by the card holder or a court order, so it is fraud.

> It was not authorized by the card holder or a court order, so it is fraud.

Sorry, you're wrong. I've had the IRS steal money directly from my bank account to pay for taxes (and fees, and fines) I didn't owe. The bank won't help you, and I had to pay a tax lawyer $1,800 to get back $3,200 in taxes (and fines) from the IRS for a stock sale I never made.

The bank treats withdrawals by government agencies as legitimate transactions. They won't recognize it as fraud, and you won't get the money back from the bank.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#188

Post by sametmax »

jsprogrammer wrote: post #180
DickingAround wrote: post #2

And the scanner maker gets a 7% cut. What could go wrong: "the state is paying ERAD Group Inc., $5,000 for the software and scanners, then 7.7 percent of all the cash the highway patrol seizes"

Highwaymen don't go away, they just get new uniforms and tools. Particularly egregious is Lt. Vincent's take: >"If you can prove can[sic] prove[sic] that you have a legitimate reason to have that money it will be given back to you. And we've done that in the past," Vincent said about any money seized.

Another polite way of stating "guilty until proven innocent" with the added twist of "punished in any case". That is seriously messed up.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#189

Post by adventured »

rlpb wrote: post #29
maxaf wrote: post #14

This can't possibly be legal or even technically feasible. The victim can call her bank and report a fraudulent transaction, which pits the bank against a warrantless seizure that's impossible to defend in court. Surely banks can catch on and frontload an "identity protection" mechanism that'll simply block transactions from anything matching "ERAD" or however they identify themselves to the ACH. It's doubtful that l…

> which pits the bank against a warrantless seizure that's impossible to defend in court Your argument could equally be applied against regular (cash) civil asset forfeiture. The outcome is the same either way. "Sorry, it was authorised by the authorities, nothing we can do". You'll be short of the money until you sue, same as in regular civil asset forfeiture. When you do sue, you'll have to prove that you're entitl…

The 'authorities' you're referring to, do not in fact have any legal authority to conduct that transaction. You're wrong entirely in your premise. What they're doing, is using force to steal property without any authorization.

The line you'll get in fact will not be that it was authorized by the authorities and there's nothing that can be done. Banking is federally regulated, it is not regulated by the state police in Oklahoma. The matter of jurisdiction when you start fraudulently stealing from bank accounts (which in many cases would naturally also be out of state and otherwise national banks, and or even virtual banks) is without question: it's a federal matter.

Cash and card are not the same. The very obvious difference between cash and card is that you can charge back via a card. The cash is physical and must be physically recovered from their possession (protected by their guns). That's a very substantial and fortunate difference for the card holder.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#190

Post by googletazer »

"If you can prove can prove that you have a legitimate reason to have that money it will be given back to you. And we've done that in the past"

Absolutely terrible. Finally bitcoin et al have a legitimate use - protecting your property from grubby government hands.

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