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Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

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Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#131

Post by hackuser »

stackus wrote: post #50
wccrawford wrote: post #16

This reads like The Onion. I can't believe they're serious. >"If you can prove can prove that you have a legitimate reason to have that money it will be given back to you. And we've done that in the past," Vincent said about any money seized. ... Legit reason? How am I supposed to prove where every cent came from? What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?

You're never charged with a crime, the object is and it is not given representation. So there's no "innocent until proven guilty" for inanimate objects. Despicable, and akin to highway robbery in my opinion.

The objects are property, and people have property rights.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#132

Post by visarga »

gherkin0 wrote: post #114

This is total, corrupt bullshit. How the fuck is a traffic cop supposed to ascertain the origin of the money in your accounts, let alone if it was from the "the commission of a crime?"

> "We're gonna look for different factors in the way that you're acting. We're gonna look for if there's a difference in your story. If there's someway that we can prove that you're falsifying information to us about your business."

If you seem suspicious, or if they claim so, then your money suddenly is not yours any more, until you prove their source. If you can't prove the legitimity of your money, they become fair game to be confiscated. In this whole process you personally are not charged with anything, but the confiscation is triggered by their being suspicious about you.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#133

Post by unpopularpuffin »

This is theft.

When someone tries to rob you, I see no ethical problem with using deadly force to defend yourself and your property.

It follows that I see no ethical problem with using deadly force against a police officer who attempts to use civil-asset forfeiture to rob you.

Obviously the law doesn't agree with me, but I care a lot more about ethics than the law. There are other considerations besides ethics here, like shooting a police officer will likely end up with you in jail. I would never shoot a cop myself. But as laws like this turn our law enforcement into thugs, I find more and more sympathy for communities that use violence against cops.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#134

Post by tremon »

jandrese wrote: post #111
Roboprog wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the speaker was trying to point out a few examples which he thought the audience would sympathize were unlikely to be threats or otherwise engaged in criminal activity. Of course all of these forfeitures stink of illegality, regardless of the victim. Forth Amendment? Never heard of it, apparently.

I'm sure they're going to use that bullshit legal reasoning that because the money committed the crime, the money itself can be held responsible and seized, and money doesn't have 4th amendment protections because it's not a person.

Yet if it's not a person, it can't be convicted of a crime either. Has a dog ever been charged for biting, instead of its owner?

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#135

Post by mcphage »

DickingAround wrote: post #2

And the scanner maker gets a 7% cut. What could go wrong: "the state is paying ERAD Group Inc., $5,000 for the software and scanners, then 7.7 percent of all the cash the highway patrol seizes"

> And the scanner maker gets a 7% cut.

And if the courts decided that the asset forfeiture was incorrect and reimburse the person it was stolen from—does the scanner maker still keep their cut? Or are they still due their cut?

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#136

Post by hackuser »

l3m0ndr0p wrote: post #82

This is outrageous. The police can get away with this because they have a weapon, a gun, which can kill you if you resist. Or at the very least, call other cops, arrest you and throw you in jail and ruin your life while you have to prove your you are not guilty & try to get your money back. This defies all logic and is a clear example of the corrupt state this country is in (USA).

> The police can get away with this because they have a weapon

I disagree. Police can do it because they have the power of the state behind them; the state can try you, imprison you, ruin your life, seize your other assets, etc. That policeman's gun is a minor detail and is rarely used.

Most importantly, they have the power of the state because voters permit it. Do you know if this is allowed in your state? Who are your state legislators? Are you going to contact them?

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#137

Post by tremon »

Shivetya wrote: post #125
brbsix wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think will happen if you're arrested with a thumbprint lock on your phone? They may not be able to force you to recite your password (at least without lengthy legal proceedings beforehand), but they can certainly grab your finger and use it to unlock the device. They may not be able to do this if you've only been detained, but I wouldn't chance it.

when you are pulled over you turn the phone OFF. Its simple and its fast.

On the other hand, when I'm pulled over, I definitely want my phone to be recording audio.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#138

Post by zymhan »

visarga wrote: post #130
viggity wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The despicable logic they use is that they're not charging the person with a crime (because people have due process rights), they're charging an inanimate object, the money, the car, etc. Property doesn't have due process rights, apparently. Seriously. If you look at the court cases for asset forfeitures, it is titled "The State of Oklahoma vs $1,534.32 in cash" or "Iowa vs 2014 Mercedes".

> Property doesn't have due process rights, Apparently, property doesn't really belong to us.

Well if property is people, then of course not silly!

Corporations are also people, so you can't really have one of those either.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#139

Post by ProAm »

tremon wrote: post #122
ProAm wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let's turn that into a war between ourselves instead of demanding better legislation and more transparency from governments The government is made up of it's constituents, we should absolutely blacklist those people to let them know we are not OK with this. You'll never get more transparency from the government, it's not in their best interest to do that, nor is it for them to implement 'better' legislation. Ideall…

The government is made up of it's constituents [..] You'll never get more transparency from the government, it's not in their best interest I don't think you meant what you wrote there. You're saying government transparency is not in the best interest of its citizens?

No I did. In theory the government is made up of its own people, so my first sentence meant I deem it acceptable to blacklist private companies that provide these products and services to the government.

But also in the same breathe, people in government are also extremely self serving, and it does them no good to provide more transparency when their current paychecks benefit from a lack of transparency.

I can see how that appears to be contradictory but I did not mean for it to be taken in that manner, hope this clears up my statement.

Re: Police use new device to seize money in bank accounts or on prepaid cards

#140

Post by tremon »

Dwolb wrote: post #40
jmuguy wrote: post #20

I think part of this is just shoddy reporting from a local news source, I believe this is tech they're talking about. https://www.erad-group.com/fci While the implications here are certainly pretty creepy, this seems more like something to use in investigations of money laundering, etc.

Gosh this copy from the linked web site seems like everything that's wrong with products in this space, "Criminals today use an array of payment cards to purchase, transfer or conceal billions of dollars of illicit funds from Law Enforcement" Which criminals? The ones a local policeman happens to stop in a routine checkpoint? I'd like to see actual stats on what percentage of everyday criminals who are met by local l…

Which criminals? The ones a local policeman happens to stop in a routine checkpoint?

Yes, US citizens are criminals by definition of law, apparently.

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