Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

usatoday.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 232 posts

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#171

Post by cortesoft »

dthrowit wrote: post #163
cortesoft wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that rules around this already exist, right? For example, in california: https://www.serve-now.com/resources/process-serving-laws/cal...

and here in california, my anecdote entails me learning via first class mail that there's about to be a judgement entered against me because I failed to respond to papers I never received, because the plaintiff had apparently served them to an old address of mine (probably intentionally by this shady lawyer filing the small claims suit against me).

Oh, I know. I made another comment in this thread about all the ways you could miss being served, even if the server follows all the laws.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#172

Post by mywittyname »

kristopolous wrote: post #121
knodi123 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very legitimate and real risk that zavodnik should take into account. If he got a judgment of $600,000 against me, causing me to lose my business and my home... I'd seriously be weighing pros and cons of sacrificing my freedom in order to rid the earth of this scum.

I'm sure many people get away with perfect murders every day. People dying due to a malfunctioning car or some other kind of unlucky event ... I bet there's a lot of clever and quiet murder that goes on in the world with a plausible deniability, alibis and everything else set up. The murderer carefully covers up evidence of sabotage or malice and the victim succumbs. People think "oh my, what a tragic accident" and r…

This was the subject of a Freakonomics podcast titled, The Perfect Crime.

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-perfect-crime-a-new-frea...

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#173

Post by cortesoft »

will_brown wrote: post #151
cortesoft wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, my buddy works as a Process Server, and I can imagine lots of situations where the person never actually receives the paperwork. He only has to try to serve the papers a few times, and then can leave them. If the defendant were out town for a few weeks, he would never get it. He doesn't have to check ID, so someone could say they were the person, he would hand it over, and be done with it. That person m…

I think I addressed most of your concerns: > Plaintiffs can also establish to the Court the Defendant is actively evading service, but there are many legitimate reasons one can't serve a Defendant. Still, even in the event of defaults the Courts will readily Vacate (set aside) default judgments in circumstances including, but not limited to: 1. improper service; and/or 2. defenses on the merits. >I don't think assumi…

I am not arguing any of your points. I am just saying that the legal requirements for serving papers can be met, and the person could still not have known about any of it.

I mean, the simplest example is, "What if someone is traveling in another country for 2 months?"

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#174

Post by sokoloff »

mattkrause wrote: post #73
vortico wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your second example, wouldn't "loser pays" make the plaintiff more likely to persue, since he is likely to recover the $5000 in damages from the landlord who took $1500 for no reason?

Imagine that the case is pretty good, but not airtight--let's say there's 2:1 odds, or a 75% chance, that you recover your money. The expected value of the lawsuit is therefore (0.75 1500) + (0.25 -5000) = -$125, which means that very few people will go after the crooked landlord. If the leasing company has deep pockets, they could slant the outcome even further in their favor. Spend $10,000 instead and the expected…

Such a debt (to Bill Gates) would be dischargeable in bankruptcy, so most poor people should take that bet. (Also, the +EV is $2.5MM, not $5MM.)

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#175

Post by yrro »

MichaelBurge wrote: post #30
GoldenMonkey wrote: post #3

Would be nice to have a 'loser pays' court system for civil trials. These kinds of trolls would go away quickly.

'loser pays' has a couple disadvantages: * It encourages people to pick the best, most expensive lawyer in town for every case no matter the expense, because your opponent will be picking up the tab. * It discourages people from using the courts to resolve their disputes, which means people without resources tend not to get any justice. If, say, your landlord steals your $1500 security deposit for no good reason, are…

* In the UK the court has considerable discretion when awarding costs. It has an obligation to deal with cases "justly and at proportionate cost". Both sides must produce budgets that the court may order to be adjusted if it sees fit. If one side tries to outspend the other then the court can refuse to award costs.

* No one in the UK needs to spend $5k on representation to get their landlord to return their deposit, and I think the court would take a dim view of anyone who tried! The law is pretty simple: if the landlord does not return the deposit, less agreed deductions, then the court will order them to return the money, and in addition award a sum between 1x and 3x the value of the deposit. A tenant in your situation would only be out the cost of a few stamps.

* This is a feature, not a bug! Litigation _is_ the last resort, and should only be attempted after all other attempts to settle have failed. The court will take a dim view of a litigant who has not made reasonable attempts to settle, and/or undergo some mediation or other alternative dispute resolution.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#176

Post by jacquesm »

jpambrun wrote: post #164
mikeash wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An adversarial system depends on the involvement of both sides. The defendant here failed to respond to a set of allegations, which made him lose by default.

That sounds incredibly stupid. Can I just start a spamming operation where I "allege" people owe me money and hope they don't respond within 30 days?

Yes you can, if you're willing to drop a few 10's of bucks on stuff from ebay, which is exactly what this guy did.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#177

Post by DannyBee »

Sacho wrote: post #138
DannyBee wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Stupid question: if the printer was worth $40 ($75 with shipping) how come the damages are worth $30k" That part is about the admissions, where the plaintiff requested the defendant admit damages were 30k (or whatever), and anything not responded to is considered admitted.

What legitimate use does that request serve?

It was originally meant to allow undisputed facts to enter the record, etc.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Request_for_admissions

You can look at the history of the FRCP to see the changes over the years in how harsh/not harsh this rule has been.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#178

Post by mywittyname »

cortesoft wrote: post #139
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who pays if the actual damages are somewhere in the middle?

You could do it like baseball does arbitration. Each side presents a figure they think is fair, and a judge picks one of the two (she can't pick somewhere in the middle, she has to pick one or the other). That way, each side is encouraged to present a reasonable amount, otherwise the other sides value will be chosen.

Ah, the old trick my mom used for dividing goods: one kid makes the division, the other makes the first choice.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#179

Post by Chris2048 »

BuckRogers wrote: post #129
Chris2048 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we blasted in turning it upside down searching the apartment for the TV. Wait, so the occupants hadn't taken your TV, but because they didn't snitch, it was OK to enter their house and turn it upside down??

I don't know their exact involvement, but they were involved. Did they help carry it out? I don't have the play by play. It wasn't a court case and I didn't care. The guys who drove off with it it were staying at their place that night. I knew it was one of two groups of folks or all of them at the house that evening. So I knew damn well I had the right people who could get the situation resolved in an efficient mann…

Sound like you had no idea if these guys had been involved in taking your TV, you just knew they where involved with the group that did. If a bunch of guys broke into your place in similar circumstances, would you be ok with that?

> For the record, they weren't harmed until they pulled a gun out

It seems reasonable to pull a gun on a bunch of strangers invading your home.

Re: Man sued for $30K over $40 printer he sold on Craigslist

#180

Post by talmand »

jeffmould wrote: post #156
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you can avoid adverse judgements by just not showing up for court // That's not what the parent said though. If you don't show up IMO the court should not take any default position but should decide the case on the facts put before it. That's not avoiding an adverse judgement, that's just not assuming one side is right just because the other side hasn't presented its case.

That doesn't work either. What happens, for example, if I sue you, you don't show up, I tell the judge you owe me a million dollars and show him a bill I printed on my computer that morning for a million dollars. You aren't there to tell the judge otherwise, so going on the "facts" I present doesn't solve the problem either.

Well, if I were the judge on that case, I would simply ask if you had any evidence to show that the bill presented was not printed on your computer that morning and actually was presented to the other party. Just presenting something in court does not make it a fact, actual real evidence is required.
Post reply on HN