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Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

swissinfo.ch

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Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#551

Post by herbst »

a-saleh wrote: post #71
Zarkonnen wrote: post #24

Coming from Switzerland, this is not at all surprising. No one expected this initiative to pass. It was really more of an attempt to get a conversation started, and it's succeeded in that. As a (tentative) supporter of basic income, I'm already quite happy that something like a fifth to a quarter of voters went for it.

Question, how does Switzerland avoid becoming more polarized country with so many referendum questions each year? Do you think there is a risk passing a referendum resolution that passed just by a small margin? I have been thinking about this since the result of Austrian presidental elections, and how more polarized the politics in Europe is becoming, while trying to figure out if there is a way how to move politics…

> Question, how does Switzerland avoid becoming more polarized country with so many referendum questions each year?

From my experience even young people are able to have healthy discussions about "difficult" topics and then just proceed with life.

This topic clearly led to some interesting discussions where some had very radical thoughts to, but i saw no friendships breaking so far.

As someone who lived in a while in Austria it is completely different there. I've seen people punched in the face for less aggressive political motives in the public.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#552

Post by herbst »

nickik wrote: post #205
Zarkonnen wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is that Switzerland is a super-expensive country. 1500 would not actually be enough to live on. You can get 4000 working at the till at a supermarket.

The idea of basic income is not to replace jobs. The idea is to give you the basics of living and food. Then you can take on additional work of some kind to improve your overall income. You could live with 1500 if you really wanted to. Its not impossible.

If you do not need any housing (or maybe am ok with a very remote small room)

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#553

Post by herbst »

tdkl wrote: post #49
_nalply wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And do you think Switzerland is different?

No I don't need to, they've shown they're different. Can I turn the question around : do you think this would work in USA, India and Brazil (random countries, nothing specific)?

I honestly think e-democracy would work everywhere after a few years of total chaos.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#554

Post by marvelous »

obiouzera wrote: post #495
_yosefk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say this about any level of democracy though (that its downside is populistic decisions, or, more precisely, decisions that you or I think are wrong.) It's easy to find a country where most decisions are made by elected leaders and they chose leaders you or I find terrible, who proceeded to make a lot of bad decisions. I don't see an argument either for more or less direct democracy here (though I guess with…

The political system in Switzerland is known to increase stability, not reduce it. The way I see it, this is down to two factors: 1. Since Switzerland does have multiple parties and all of the bigger ones a represented in the federal council, there is more compromise and decisions made by consensus. This in turn leads to less dramatics shifts after a term is up and some politicians are replaced. In contrast in the US…

Your first point is IMO too often understated. The fact that our executive branch comes from most parties in the parliament, instead of a barely-reaching 50% coalition like in most countries is a huge factor.

It has nothing to do with the direct democracy thing, but the most surprising is this so-called "magic formula" is only a tradition and there is nothing in the law that prevents a parliamentary coalition from voting an executive branch representing only 50% of the parliament.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#555

Post by illumen »

stale2002 wrote: post #525
matthewmacleod wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You apparently want violence done by the state to happen to people who merely make "hateful comments". Aka, people who make statements you disagree with. Nice tolerance there, bro.… You are the fascist if you believe that the people you disagree with should be silenced. This seems to be a bit of a straw man argument. While some people no doubt want those views silenced, that's not the correct approach and not one I s…

The OP absolutely wants those he disagrees with to be silenced. "The people who brake the law with their hateful comments inciting violence deserve to face the consequences of the law. " AKA, if people make arguments that he disagrees with, like "immigrants are more likely to break the law", he believes those people who make those arguments should be put in jail.

That's not what I believe, and that's not the law.

Stop making stuff up.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#556

Post by tluyben2 »

ams6110 wrote: post #301
Eric_WVGG wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A two hour daily commute is like 12% of your waking hours crumpled and thrown away. That sounds like hell. Two hours is a long time! Sit around for the two hours doing nothing, you'll see.

A two hour commute (assuming one hour each way) is very very common. I did it for years when I lived in the suburbs and worked downtown. About an hour door-to-door each way, with the train ride being about 45 minutes of that.

I did it for years too and I would never do it again, no matter what the pay is. I guess it is a matter of options and taste, but I find commute and working in an office every day quite close to living in hell.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#558

Post by vasilipupkin »

bane wrote: post #465
vasilipupkin wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are forgetting that your down payment ( and equity )is tied up in the house, when it could be invested elsewhere.

If you run the numbers and assume a market rate of return on most investments, it's very hard to turn the relatively small amount of money a down payment is into a net gain after 30 years.

that statement is simply false

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#559

Post by stefanix »

s3nnyy wrote: post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

The amount of net-saleries don't tell you much about the standard of living you will have in a certain place. The expenses can be so radically different, especially if you think of ever having a family. Also work hours differ a lot.

I have worked at Universities and IT in the US, Switzerland, and Austria. Austria has almost free kindergardens, schools, and higher education. In CH (basel area) I paid 70USD/day/child kindergarden fee. In the US it's quite normal to start saving for your kids education when they are born.

US health care is a mess. Even after paying tons of money you have to set money aside for all the times you get screwed over by insurgence companies refusing to pay certain parts of a procedure. If you are honest with yourself you have to subtract this all from your pay check and/or add this when you live in an area that has fail-proof health insurance for under 400 USD/month/family.

CH's living expenses are generally very high and most people starting a job there underestimate this. If you think a 40 USD pizza at a normal looking place is insane, you are one of them.

Just throwing some pointers out that salaries must be compared in context ...

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#560

Post by rbanffy »

saiya-jin wrote: post #478
rbanffy wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lets be honest here, the 'minaret' issue is extremely minor one. Not at all. It violates the very idea of freedom of religion. I doubt a ban on building of churches would be approved and this shows that a more popular group can (and does) trample on fundamental human rights of other smaller groups.

ok let's get down back to earth and reality - it's their country, they are a bit hardcore christians, and since they don't bow to anybody but themselves, they can choose to do whatever they deem good for their society. Most armed and most free nation said it's opinion and I have to agree with them on this one. One's freedom ends where other's begins. If similar vote would be done now in countries around europe, resul…

I am pretty sure the ISIS guys being pretty hardcore Wahhabis Muslims doesn't exactly makes us comfortable with mass executions, does it? One's freedom may end where other's begins but how far can the other deny freedoms to one and still claim it's an exercise of other's freedom?
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