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Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

swissinfo.ch

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Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#521
post #37

Switzerland is the only country in the world that implements direct democracy. You can really feel the difference to the rest of Europe. Swiss more often than not stand behind decisions made by their government. When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say "WE decided that ..." whereas e.g., Germans say: "THEY decided that ..." If you look for a coding job in Europe, Zurich is a great place to live and is the…

> When talking about their politicians, the Swiss say “WE decided that …” whereas e.g., Germans say: “THEY decided that …”

Whereas the Australians say: “Look what those bastards have done now …”

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard Chicago city lot is only about 25' wide though. The houses are very close together, with a tiny front yard and a slightly large back yard but only a narrow strip on either side.

That's a big part of what makes them not suburban. I like the narrow lots. Why would I need more than the typical Chicago lot?

Antenna towers.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#523
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get a decent house in a nice neighborhood on the north side of Chicago for around 200k.

That might be realistic for a condo, but a single family home at that price would have to be a serious fixer-upper or have some other significant flaw (near gang areas, etc.). The types of homes most urban professionals would consider suitable are hard to find under $500k in Chicago. And if you're targeting one of the few decent public school districts, even that number is a stretch.

I am not sure where your figures come, but as someone who looked seriously at eight houses in various neighborhoods of Chicago, you can find quite suitable houses in the $200-250k range.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can’t really compare – I’ve never been in the US. But I’m gonna assume the relaxed zoning in the EU, and the resulting mix of commercial, residential, and offices, often even in the same building, leads to the people having a reason to go downtown.

Thats part of it, the other part is simple market economics. It is hard for the things that people want to do at night (clubs, art galleries, restaurants and bars) which are much lower margin businesses to compete with the large financial and governmental institutions that dominate places like the Chicago loop, lower Manhattan or downtown Dallas. These leads to a pretty common pattern where just outside of the financ…

> I have much less experience in European cities, but my experience in Dublin, Amsterdam and Frankfort are not much different than this.

I only visited cities which don’t really have high-margin businesses, so that’s maybe why I never noticed that.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you conflating "hateful comments" with violence? You are the only one who seems to be arguing in favor of violence. You apparently want violence done by the state to happen to people who merely make "hateful comments". Aka, people who make statements you disagree with. Nice tolerance there, bro. Changing laws should be done through the legal process. Even if the laws changing happen to be something you that p…

You apparently want violence done by the state to happen to people who merely make "hateful comments". Aka, people who make statements you disagree with. Nice tolerance there, bro.… You are the fascist if you believe that the people you disagree with should be silenced. This seems to be a bit of a straw man argument. While some people no doubt want those views silenced, that's not the correct approach and not one I s…

The OP absolutely wants those he disagrees with to be silenced.

"The people who brake the law with their hateful comments inciting violence deserve to face the consequences of the law. "

AKA, if people make arguments that he disagrees with, like "immigrants are more likely to break the law", he believes those people who make those arguments should be put in jail.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#526
post #501
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you'll get any principle out of this beyond something like "my preferences are the best preferences."

In general the right of people to do as they please as long as they aren't infringing on the rights of others isn't considered a mere "preference."

That would work if deciding which things are and are not rights was not itself a preference. You can say that you have some axiom which informs your decisions, but you may have some difficulty proving that this axiom is superior to all others, or all others known (and in which logical framework?).

In practice, this usually ends up selecting for the preference to simply not care about any of the above.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you conflating "hateful comments" with violence? You are the only one who seems to be arguing in favor of violence. You apparently want violence done by the state to happen to people who merely make "hateful comments". Aka, people who make statements you disagree with. Nice tolerance there, bro. Changing laws should be done through the legal process. Even if the laws changing happen to be something you that p…

When people spread lies about immigrants, and put them on the internet, in print, or say them at demonstrations to thousands -- then those have a proven affect to incite violence. This violence happens against innocent people who did not break the law. I am against that. The people who brake the law with their hateful comments inciting violence deserve to face the consequences of the law. (which is not always violenc…

"If you think there is really some conspiracy to hide the statistics of rapes by immigrants, then do the research and prove it."

And how would I go about doing that? Apparently if I make this argument, then people like you will try and send me to jail (or fine me or whatever).

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is something to be said for having been born (and as a result, raised) in a post-Enlightenment society. Migrants from pre-Englightenment societies almost always raise the general crime levels, take value that they didn't earn, and become the new underclass. Look at Irish and Italian immigrants in the US in the 1800s. We came from countries that did not have the same level of education, without the history of li…

I have seen a lot of tossed-off racism on HN before, but this is the first time I've ever seen it deployed against the Irish .

I've not made any arguments that we are pre-disposed, as a race, to these traits. I made no mention of the heritability of these traits. Describing my comment as racism is a complete nonsequitor.

My comment was on the state of the predominant Irish culture at the time of the diaspora.

By 1800 Ireland had been victim to hundreds of years of British misrule, shortly followed a major famine.

Our culture was devastated, our institutions were devastated, our life expectancy was in the mid 30's. We had little experience in self-governance, little experience of Democracy, Catholics were banned from most universities, couldn't fully own land until 1778.

It was even illegal for Catholics to teach elementary school, so childhood education was in an unimaginably desperate state.

Worst of all, Irish immigrants (unlike the H1Bs of today) mostly came from the lowest rungs of society in this already destitute nation and culture.

When my Irish great great grandmother came here she was 16, sent to America by her stepfather (along with her younger brother) because he no longer wanted to care for another man's children. She was fortunate enough to have come from a family of domestics for a wealthy estate, so she spoke well, and could cook and clean. She was comparatively lucky. Even so, it took multiple generations before my family pulled out of poverty, in NYC, and became a normal middle-class family.

Trying to assimilate a population like that into a nation with limited government and social institutions, as the US was in the 19th century, is a recipe for disaster. And it was, for a long time, a disaster.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how having [already legally silenced] minarets affects the culture of Swiss people that don't attend mosques in the slightest apart from its visual impact on the surrounding area. (I'm not sure minarets or lack thereof affects anyone's culture that much tbh) Frankly I'd have thought enshrining the principle of intolerance of the symbols of a particular religion in the constitution represented a more subs…

well, it seems pretty clear to me, but let's assume this in an honest question, and pardon me for my honesty - these are my own observations from living here: - generally europe is christian. swiss are very traditionalists, and religion is very important here. they are extremely tolerant to other cultures (that's why UN is in Geneva for example), but only to the point where they don't feel their own culture threatene…

> would you go and build a church in Afghanistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia?

No, but being too scared to do something doesn't make it moral - it just makes it enforced. I don't support these countries' overt hostility to and breaches of human rights, but I'm not going to risk my life to fix it either.

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