Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters • Hacker News Board

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#471

Post by kuschku » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 9:07 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #454

kuschku wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most big cities after business hours are full of life, full of people out going to bars, clubs, other events, etc. If you go outside in the downtown of most 200k+ cities, on any normal day, you’ll find lots of people there. On the other hand, the residential suburbs will be dead.

This isn't true in the U.S. Downtowns all across the country are dead at night.

Well, I can’t really compare – I’ve never been in the US.

But I’m gonna assume the relaxed zoning in the EU, and the resulting mix of commercial, residential, and offices, often even in the same building, leads to the people having a reason to go downtown.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#472

Post by paulsutter » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 9:08 PM UTC

Taking a long-term view, 23% in favor is strong progress for an idea that was once considered outrageous.

Let's see the trend in future referendums. You could argue that basic income may be impractical today. But over the next 10, 20, 30 years, the world will change dramatically.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#473

Post by saiya-jin » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 9:16 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #213

patrickaljord wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This shows otherwise. Switzerland is one the most highly educated and richest country on earth. Do you think the results of direct democracy would be equally responsible in Egypt, Syria or Bolivia? (I'm half-Syrian).

Maybe it is the richest country because of direct democracy ...

it's a mixed bag. I know in my home country (Slovakia), if they had same vote as Swiss few years back, people would vote for some ridiculous bad stuff. One example out of many - extending minimum paid vacation per year from 4 weeks to 6. Swiss population said NO, because of the financial consequences to employers. Now tell me, how many countries out there would end up with same result given this option?

Quality attracts and breeds more quality. Somehow, they manage to pull it off for last 800 years, in one way or the other.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#474

Post by s3nnyy » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 9:20 PM UTC

insulanian wrote: post #457

rasur wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a regular Zürich Döner eater, I'd be curious to see these fabled 20$ equivalent Döners. Mine are always in the 10/11CHF range (~$11).

In Munich you pay 4.00 - 4.50 EUR. That pretty much erases any advantage of Zurich vs German salaries.

It's more like 5.50 EUR

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#475

Post by kasey_junk » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 9:25 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #471

dionidium wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't true in the U.S. Downtowns all across the country are dead at night.

Well, I can’t really compare – I’ve never been in the US. But I’m gonna assume the relaxed zoning in the EU, and the resulting mix of commercial, residential, and offices, often even in the same building, leads to the people having a reason to go downtown.

Thats part of it, the other part is simple market economics. It is hard for the things that people want to do at night (clubs, art galleries, restaurants and bars) which are much lower margin businesses to compete with the large financial and governmental institutions that dominate places like the Chicago loop, lower Manhattan or downtown Dallas.

These leads to a pretty common pattern where just outside of the financial/governmental centers of US cities there exist neighborhoods that are mixes of residential, cafe's, nightlife, "creative businesses" or retail. For instance, the Chicago loop is literally surrounded by such places.

But the lack of activity in a financial district has very little correlation to the density of the city. Manhattan is obviously a walkable and dense place to live but lower manhattan (wall street) can feel down right empty after hours.

I have much less experience in European cities, but my experience in Dublin, Amsterdam and Frankfort are not much different than this.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#476

Post by cangencer » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

ZoeZoeBee wrote: post #237

illumen wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

""" I wonder if you think that pro-immigration movements can be inflamed, reflexive, unthinking and possibly offensive? Actually they do not need to be because there's been a fait accompli in that at least one million immigrants have entered Germany on the basis of what appears to be the say-so of one woman. Discussion is over! This isn't the context for a rebuttal of your suggestion that unfounded accusations abound…

A few things. 1) Sweden has been importing North African and Middle Eastern people's since the early 1970s in a concerted effort to shore up their Demographic issues. https://swedenreport.org/immigration-3/ 2) Sweden made it a crime to question the Immigration Policies of the Government. http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4972/sweden-free-speech 3) The last time they reported rapes by nationalities those born in a for…

Regarding 4), the numbers reported are quarterly. You can see the annual chart here:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/sweden/gdp-growth-annual

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#477

Post by saiya-jin » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 9:32 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #351

DominikR wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not familiar with the Swiss situation but doubt the constitutional changes around minarets were fought over the merits of Islamic architecture or nuanced arguments about zoning. It is a misconception to believe that these are the only valid types of arguments against minarets. There are many that value their own culture and want to keep it that way without necessarily viewing other cultures as inferior.

I'm not sure how having [already legally silenced] minarets affects the culture of Swiss people that don't attend mosques in the slightest apart from its visual impact on the surrounding area. (I'm not sure minarets or lack thereof affects anyone's culture that much tbh) Frankly I'd have thought enshrining the principle of intolerance of the symbols of a particular religion in the constitution represented a more subs…

well, it seems pretty clear to me, but let's assume this in an honest question, and pardon me for my honesty - these are my own observations from living here:

- generally europe is christian. swiss are very traditionalists, and religion is very important here. they are extremely tolerant to other cultures (that's why UN is in Geneva for example), but only to the point where they don't feel their own culture threatened. Obviously, with islam, and islam only, based on plenty of bad experience in their neighbors (ie France, Germany) they decided as they did. Over time, they don't regret their decision. Personally, even as atheist, I tend to agree on this topic. Overall attitude in Europe is same right now and many wish they could have similar vote.

- would you go and build a church in Afghanistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia? (Actually I've visited old churches in Isfahan in Iran, with thriving christian community, humbling experience). Not many would even think about this. Personally I don't find it shocking that dominant religion is preferred somewhere. You can practice anything you want at home, just no official religious places are allowed to build. Bear in mind that those that were already built are still standing, this applies only to new construction. Very Swiss approach.

it's something around being tolerant to others only to the point where your own identity and core principles are not threatened. very mature and clever approach.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#478

Post by saiya-jin » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #463

nickik wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Swiss let me give you my opinion of this. First I will say that I voted against this. Lets be honest here, the 'minaret' issue is extremely minor one. I does not effect large numbers of people and it does not effecte them in a particularly strong way. Based on first principle I voted against it, but was not the most important issue for me or for Switzerland. Most of the time the results Switzerland gets to usual…

> Lets be honest here, the 'minaret' issue is extremely minor one. Not at all. It violates the very idea of freedom of religion. I doubt a ban on building of churches would be approved and this shows that a more popular group can (and does) trample on fundamental human rights of other smaller groups.

ok let's get down back to earth and reality - it's their country, they are a bit hardcore christians, and since they don't bow to anybody but themselves, they can choose to do whatever they deem good for their society. Most armed and most free nation said it's opinion and I have to agree with them on this one. One's freedom ends where other's begins.

If similar vote would be done now in countries around europe, results would be pretty similar.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#479

Post by grkvlt » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #454

kuschku wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most big cities after business hours are full of life, full of people out going to bars, clubs, other events, etc. If you go outside in the downtown of most 200k+ cities, on any normal day, you’ll find lots of people there. On the other hand, the residential suburbs will be dead.

This isn't true in the U.S. Downtowns all across the country are dead at night.

London is interesting, in that the square mile (financial district) while being very busy (even at night) during the week, due to workers drinking and socialising after office hours, is absolutely empty at weekends. On Sundays the streets are absolutely deserted, which makes it a great time to film apocalyptic zombie movies - see '28 Days Later' for an example.

Re: Basic income plan clearly rejected by Swiss voters

#480

Post by coredog64 » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 9:45 PM UTC

massysett wrote: post #132

elcapitan wrote: post #4

I wish I would live in a country where essential political decisions like that are made by the people and not by some professional political elite in a far away capital.

Maybe direct democracy works in a small scale, and by "small" I mean a few dozen people in a town. Referendum is no panacea. A legislative body can tweak legislation and debate it and compromise. When voting on a referendum there is no such compromise. It's just a binary choice.

Communism is the same way. What works on the communal farm doesn't scale out to a nation-state.