GNU Taler 0.0.0 released • Hacker News Board

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#91

Post by vesak » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:26 PM UTC

jdimov9 wrote: post #48

etatoby wrote: post #22

If you consider how much money is embezzled / stolen by (most) corporations by avoiding paying taxes for all the services they benefit from, in the countries they operate in, this seems a very good feature.

This must be the most blatantly hypocritical statement I have ever read. Money is STOLEN by corporations by not paying taxes??? How ignorant and thankless can you be? Money is CREATED by these corporations and you owe a huge chunk of your well-being, and quite likely your life, to the existence of said corporations.

Wealth is created by small companies too, perhaps even more so that the big ones. However, they don't have the resourcers to evade taxes like the big ones do.

You realize what that means, right?

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#92

Post by exstudent2 » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

X86BSD wrote: post #88

maloney wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... Your argument is, if the thing taking your money provides you with some benefit it's moral?

I think a better argument is that it's simply not a voluntary contract between two parties. It's theft by one party that has a monopoly on violence to enforce the theft on the other party. Until one day when the other party stops playing by those rules and shoots back. "But you can vote to change it." If voting changed anything it would be illegal. Only an idiot believes "voting" means anything in a two party system…

Really sad to see all the libertarian viewpoints blanket down voted, mostly without any replies.

It really seems like tech has been hit with a wave of pro-big government thinking. My personal theory is that it's younger people who didn't have to deal with the threat of a draft and the baby boomers heavy handed social meddling.

The threat of being forced into a war you don't agree with will make you think twice about funding the entity making that happen. Same with watching decades of ineffective social engineering from above.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#93

Post by tremon » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

rocky1138 wrote: post #82

brianolson wrote: post #39

Title should say something about what "Taler" is. It's obviously brand new. A post about ffmpeg 67.9.5 might assume that there's more knowledge in the world about what "ffmpeg" is.

While I agree with you, Thaler is the origin of the word Dollar.

Not all of us use the Dollar as our primary currency, and probably fewer of us are etymologists.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#94

Post by ball_of_lint » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

fiatjaf wrote: post #75

jug wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the parent imply that?

Yes, of course.

No, it implied it would be better for them to pay their taxes.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#95

Post by tremon » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

X86BSD wrote: post #63

cyphar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have no issue with their work being used for proprietary software. That's the opposite of having strong convictions about free software. Sure, they provide a mostly free operating system but they allow other people to take that code and enslave users. And I say that knowing that Linus doesn't care about software freedom either, it's just a development model to him. But at least it uses the GPL, so any code I con…

"They have no issue with their work being used..." Stop. Right there. Do not pass go do not collect $200 dollars. There is where you should have stopped. People who write code and release it under a BSDL want people to use their code. ALL people! Users and business. That is called freedom. You, whoever you may be, are free to use this code any way you see fit just don't sue me. The GPL on the other hand hates proprie…

"They have no issue with their work being used..." Stop. Right there.

No, you can't stop there. You can't quote half an assertion and then attack that. It's called a straw man, and a fairly obvious one.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#96

Post by tremon » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

abritinthebay wrote: post #54

jdimov9 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This must be the most blatantly hypocritical statement I have ever read. Money is STOLEN by corporations by not paying taxes??? How ignorant and thankless can you be? Money is CREATED by these corporations and you owe a huge chunk of your well-being, and quite likely your life, to the existence of said corporations.

If you owe money to someone and don't pay it deliberately... what else would you call it other than stealing? Corporations get many benefits from the government (as do we all, in different ways) so is only fair that they pay taxes. The corporate tax rate is less in recognition that they are capital generators.

If you owe money to someone and don't pay it deliberately... what else would you call it other than stealing?

Defaulting. I understand that the RIAA has succesfully popularised the term "stealing" beyond its legal definition, but that doesn't mean we should expand it even further.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#97

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #68

kybernetyk wrote: post #13

>Unlike BitCoin or cash payments, Taler ensures that governments can learn their citizen's total income and thus collect sales, value-added or income taxes Wow, what a feature ...

Indeed, that is an excellent feature. Money transfers without the banks, but I can potentially get buy-in from my government and use it to pay my taxes (which I am happy to pay, because I am buying civilization with it)? Sign me up!

[deleted]

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#98

Post by irq-1 » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 5:55 PM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #71

vesak wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the world ain't black and white. Taxes are immoral, but evading taxes is probably more immoral. How low the scales are on both these is dependant on who is ruling you at the moment. Managing to build our societies around a non-cheatable taxation system would be a huge step forwards for our species. Just think how huge systems we have built just because most people don't want to pay. How much freedom and creativ…

> Managing to build our societies around a non-cheatable taxation system would be a huge step forwards for our species. I don't dispute that this could be true, but building our societies around untaxable money would be a similar step forward. The primary problem is the ambiguity, where the rich mitigate taxes/inflation while the poor run on the suckers' treadmill. Although given the tendency for capital to influence…

A system that is transparent (for collections, not payments) is ideal. It makes cheating harder, even if it doesn't solve all ways of cheating. Untaxable money would make cheating easier for lack of accounting.

An "exit for the minorities at the edges" will always exist by paying outside the system (possibly using a private/local currency.) In fact the exit will be easier to use and more beneficial for poorer people since they're dealing with smaller amounts in a local community of trust. Wealthy cheats who try to exit a system like this will loose the availability of a trusted money (a species) not controlled by governments.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#99

Post by brasky » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

typon wrote: post #50

vesak wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the world ain't black and white. Taxes are immoral, but evading taxes is probably more immoral. How low the scales are on both these is dependant on who is ruling you at the moment. Managing to build our societies around a non-cheatable taxation system would be a huge step forwards for our species. Just think how huge systems we have built just because most people don't want to pay. How much freedom and creativ…

Why are taxes immoral?

Forced taxation is immoral since it violates the non aggression principle. You can still have voluntary taxation though.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#100

Post by tremon » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 6:03 PM UTC

drdeca wrote: post #55

jdimov9 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This must be the most blatantly hypocritical statement I have ever read. Money is STOLEN by corporations by not paying taxes??? How ignorant and thankless can you be? Money is CREATED by these corporations and you owe a huge chunk of your well-being, and quite likely your life, to the existence of said corporations.

A company creating value and the same company committing theft are not contradictory. One can take commendable actions AND reprimandable (?) actions. As far as whether there is an obligation to pay taxes, well, "render unto caesar what is due to caesar" and all that.

reprimandable (?)

Deplorable.