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GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

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Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#41

Post by mortehu »

MatthewWilkes wrote: post #7

So, semver is great and all, but 0.0.x releases just look silly, in my opinion. I've never seen someone zero index the least significant column before though, which makes it look even worse. Would people actually expect w piece of software marked as version 0.0.0 to be anything more than a placeholder?

From the release notes:

> This is a first alpha release

Alpha typically means feature complete, but untested and thus unsuitable for general release. You don't need to use good-looking version numbers for that.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#42

Post by cyphar »

coldtea wrote: post #35
etatoby wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free software is pretty much the opposite of proprietary software, yes, and GPL is the single license that enabled the free software revolution we are all benefiting from. Sure, the battle against greed is far from over, but the benefits are already quite obvious. If people and companies had kept to proprietary EULA and BSD as the only options, we would still be in the dire situation we were in the 90s.

> Free software is pretty much the opposite of proprietary software, yes, and GPL is the single license that enabled the free software revolution we are all benefiting from. I call BS. GPL just happened to have the GNU stack with it. If the same toolchain (gcc, etc) were released as BSD/MIT from the beginning, it would have been just as well or better.

GNU was created on the basis of the GPL. It's not an accident that the "GNU stack had the GPL", it was a plan from the beginning to create a system which people could use in freedom. The toolchain would not exist if Stallman hadn't made the decision that user freedom was something he should work towards. And we wouldn't have any free software without GNU, because that's what the world was heading towards in the 70s and 80s. BSD would still be proprietary, since Stallman talked to Berkeley to convince the developers to release their improvements to Unix.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#43

Post by cornstalks »

dunkelheit wrote: post #31
cornstalks wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny that programmers treat zero-indexing arrays and things as normal (even "correct"), but suddenly zero-indexing versions is something wacky. What's weird to me is that 0.0.0 isn't more common in the developer world, given how frequently we start counting from 0.

I find 0.0.x versions wacky too. Version numbers (in contrast to array subscripts) are only useful in relation to previous version numbers. Ideally when a new version of the software I use comes out I can decide whether to upgrade only by comparing the version number with the one I use. E.g. in semver increased minor number means "new functionality added". So when 0.0.0 version comes out, what does it mean, compared…

What does 0.0.1 mean, compared to the absence of software? You can't compare 0.0.1 to anything if there's no other previous release.

Starting at 0.0.1 is at least just as arbitrary as starting at 0.0.0, and your aversion to starting at 0.0.0 suggests you're making implicit assumptions about what the non-existent 0.0.0 means when starting at 0.0.1. But if 0.0.0 doesn't even exist then you can't really make any assumptions about it.

At least 0.0.0 is clearly the very first version of something. Starting at 0.0.1 doesn't make clear that there isn't an earlier 0.0.0.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#44

Post by simondedalus »

coldtea wrote: post #35
etatoby wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free software is pretty much the opposite of proprietary software, yes, and GPL is the single license that enabled the free software revolution we are all benefiting from. Sure, the battle against greed is far from over, but the benefits are already quite obvious. If people and companies had kept to proprietary EULA and BSD as the only options, we would still be in the dire situation we were in the 90s.

> Free software is pretty much the opposite of proprietary software, yes, and GPL is the single license that enabled the free software revolution we are all benefiting from. I call BS. GPL just happened to have the GNU stack with it. If the same toolchain (gcc, etc) were released as BSD/MIT from the beginning, it would have been just as well or better.

it would have been absurd to write that toolchain with a "kind of free" license. why would RMS bother? it's not like he didn't have access to existing software.

i'm guessing you think that's just "incidental"... but that's a very strange argument to ever make if you think anything has any explanatory power at all.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#45

Post by grenoire »

mortehu wrote: post #41
MatthewWilkes wrote: post #7

So, semver is great and all, but 0.0.x releases just look silly, in my opinion. I've never seen someone zero index the least significant column before though, which makes it look even worse. Would people actually expect w piece of software marked as version 0.0.0 to be anything more than a placeholder?

From the release notes: > This is a first alpha release Alpha typically means feature complete, but untested and thus unsuitable for general release. You don't need to use good-looking version numbers for that.

It's not even remotely close to being feature complete as of speaking.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#46

Post by cyphar »

X86BSD wrote: post #38
cyphar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be happy to use illumos or BSD if the community had strong convictions about free software. They generally don't, so I'll pass.

I'm not really sure how you can say that but again enjoy your zeal induced tunnel view. You can't get any more free than the BSDL short of public domain. And neither OS has any binary only parts or parts only available if you pay for them that I am aware of. So again i don't know how you view them as not having strong convictions about free software.

They have no issue with their work being used for proprietary software. That's the opposite of having strong convictions about free software. Sure, they provide a mostly free operating system but they allow other people to take that code and enslave users. And I say that knowing that Linus doesn't care about software freedom either, it's just a development model to him. But at least it uses the GPL, so any code I contribute will never be used to enslave users.

"More free" is not the point. It's caring about users enough to not allow someone to take advantage of them by taking your work and giving them a proprietary version. That's what the GPL provides which the BSD doesn't.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#47

Post by Latty »

cornstalks wrote: post #16
MatthewWilkes wrote: post #7

So, semver is great and all, but 0.0.x releases just look silly, in my opinion. I've never seen someone zero index the least significant column before though, which makes it look even worse. Would people actually expect w piece of software marked as version 0.0.0 to be anything more than a placeholder?

It's funny that programmers treat zero-indexing arrays and things as normal (even "correct"), but suddenly zero-indexing versions is something wacky. What's weird to me is that 0.0.0 isn't more common in the developer world, given how frequently we start counting from 0.

Because non-developers deal with versions. Sure, programmers use zero-indexing because it makes a lot of common things a lot easier, but I can't imagine anyone expecting that to extend to the regular world where the first item being 1 is ingrained, and makes more sense given the use.

For this reason, 0.x versions can make sense - they serve as a good flag for 'this is pre-release', because people expect version 1 to be the first released version.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#48

Post by jdimov9 »

etatoby wrote: post #22

If you consider how much money is embezzled / stolen by (most) corporations by avoiding paying taxes for all the services they benefit from, in the countries they operate in, this seems a very good feature.

This must be the most blatantly hypocritical statement I have ever read. Money is STOLEN by corporations by not paying taxes??? How ignorant and thankless can you be? Money is CREATED by these corporations and you owe a huge chunk of your well-being, and quite likely your life, to the existence of said corporations.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#49

Post by icebraining »

X86BSD wrote: post #32
cyphar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Btrfs, systemtap, etc. It's not the Linux community's fault that Sun wanted to create a license that would make it GPL incompatible. If it were compatible, it probably would've been merged years ago. And CDDL is still copyleft, but it retains all of the restrictions with none of the benefits for users. So it's really the "worst" of both worlds. But you can put that in your pipe and smoke it if you like. > So "succe…

It's funny how other open source projects had no problem adopting ZFS or it's license. Perhaps the issue isn't Sun or the CDDL but rather Linux and the GPL. Perhaps it's the GPL that isn't compatible with others. But that is the entire point of the viral nature of GPL. "You don't have to use our code." Your right and people are beginning not to. I mean seriously if you are so full of zeal you can't see Linux starting…

It's funny how other open source projects had no problem adopting ZFS or it's license.

Not true; here's OpenBSD/OpenSSH developer Damien Miller on the CDDL:

  The CDDL is even more restrictive than the GPL and is
  far more legally pernicious. In particular:
  
  Clause 3.5 is a GPL-like "must distribute source" requirement.
  
  Worse, clauses 3.3 and 9 have no place in a free software license.
  
  I don't understand how anyone who has read the license could say that it
  is even remotely "compliant with the BSD philosophy". The GPL is far
  more acceptable than the CDDL.
  
  > Is there a chance to have star integrated into OpenBSD?
  
  Not with this license. If you want the BSDs to use star, then maybe you
  should license it with a BSD license.
http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=110806948606417&w=2

Here's Theo de Raadt:

  And now, because of "ZFS and dtrace", we should throw that entire
  Bostic-started effort out the window.  Screw freedom, I need ZFS and
  dtrace. (...)

  Don't be fooled.  In fact, I urge our users to investigate every
  person who has mentioned "ZFS and dtrace" together in the past.  Their
  agenda is not the one that you or I believe in.  Their agenda is
  division.
http://openbsd-archive.7691.n7.nabble.com/CDDL-vs-GPL-and-ma...

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#50

Post by typon »

vesak wrote: post #36
kybernetyk wrote: post #13

>Unlike BitCoin or cash payments, Taler ensures that governments can learn their citizen's total income and thus collect sales, value-added or income taxes Wow, what a feature ...

Well, the world ain't black and white. Taxes are immoral, but evading taxes is probably more immoral. How low the scales are on both these is dependant on who is ruling you at the moment. Managing to build our societies around a non-cheatable taxation system would be a huge step forwards for our species. Just think how huge systems we have built just because most people don't want to pay. How much freedom and creativ…

Why are taxes immoral?
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