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GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

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Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#81
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are taxes immoral?

Spoiler: they aren't. It's an incredibly naive position that many "libertarians" hold. It ignores the direct and indirect benefits that governments provide that support an entity being able to make money that can even be taxed. It's quite a silly position. Now specific taxes could be immoral and debate about the correct amount that it should be all you like... but the concept? No.

Your argument would only be true if there was no alternative to government programs. Both private enterprise and charity can accomplish what is now being ineffectively done via the government. All without the highly immoral (imo) military and political spending the government prioritizes.

People should be allowed to keep 100% of their earnings. To involuntarily take a percentage is by definition immoral (theft).

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#83
post #51
post #22

If you consider how much money is embezzled / stolen by (most) corporations by avoiding paying taxes for all the services they benefit from, in the countries they operate in, this seems a very good feature.

Yeah, because it would be much better if none of these companies existed.

Companies need to freeload in order to exist?

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#84
post #22

If you consider how much money is embezzled / stolen by (most) corporations by avoiding paying taxes for all the services they benefit from, in the countries they operate in, this seems a very good feature.

Stolen from who? It's a pretty fucked up state of mind, when avoiding to give your honestly earned money to burglars is called "stealing".

Maybe you like paying taxes, and maybe I do not, let's not try to convince each other who is right or wrong, we won't get anywhere. Let's not talk about "moral" and "immoral", it's plain stupid. Let's just imagine somebody else (let's refer to his as Citizen), who has an opinion of his own, and he doesn't support the current state of things in the country he is living in. He is being told, that taxes he pays are used by some smart centralized organization to help him, to serve the community, but he sees otherwise: money is spent to feed and send killers to Iraq, (or whatever country his own country is terrorizing) which he doesn't want to support. And to fix a playground in his neighbourhood, or do something else he and his neighbours actually care about, he needs to gather the money and organize a workforce himself. He doesn't have the ability to fuck around such a massive amount of people, to become a president of his country himself, but he is active enough, to move things forward in his community. Unfortunately, no good deeds go unpunished in his country, so he has to do it silently. GNU Taler doesn't help him in doing so.

And now let's imagine a corporation of yours. What is this corporation. Facebook? ExxonMobil? Do you imagine them being in need of "GNU Taler" or even "Bitcoin"? I don't. The reason being, they have the power our Citizen does not. They have money to spend on lobbying, they have all the connections Citizen cannot even dream about, they have smart, educated lawyers and accountants who's primary job is to find a way to pay less taxes and depend on the government as little as possible, and they do it successfully every day. The do and will find a way, and they can do it in semi-transparent manner, w/o hiding behind some cryptocurrency.

Cryptocurrency that strips a merchant naked isn't really harmful for such corporation, even if they have to use it, because they currently successfully abuse the system, that is as close to stripping them naked as possible, there's no step up from that in terms of payment system. It is harmful only for individuals and small businesses, which are, if anything, an opposition to your image of "evil stealing corporation". Because they are the ones being robbed, not the robbers.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#85
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoiler: they aren't. It's an incredibly naive position that many "libertarians" hold. It ignores the direct and indirect benefits that governments provide that support an entity being able to make money that can even be taxed. It's quite a silly position. Now specific taxes could be immoral and debate about the correct amount that it should be all you like... but the concept? No.

So... Your argument is, if the thing taking your money provides you with some benefit it's moral?

No, the argument is that humans are tribal creatures.

Imagine going off to live in the woods with a handful of other individuals, 100% off the grid and with only the tools you can carry. Inevitably, it wouldn't be long before you start insisting that everyone help out with farming or hunting or repairs or something. It's literally built into our DNA that individuals should contribute some labor to the betterment of the tribe in exchange for the security and comfort the tribe provides.

Now, fast-forward to the modern world. We have much, much bigger tribes called countries, and we have a way of talking about and trading human labor that we call money. But it's still true that you should contribute some of your labor (i.e. money) to the tribe (i.e. your country) in exchange for security and comfort (i.e. civilization).

Taxes are moral so long as the taxed individuals consent to be part of the entity imposing the taxes, and there are very few individuals throughout history who have actually been willing to opt out of civilization. And, since you're reading a page on the internet you are clearly not one of them.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#87
post #48
post #22

If you consider how much money is embezzled / stolen by (most) corporations by avoiding paying taxes for all the services they benefit from, in the countries they operate in, this seems a very good feature.

This must be the most blatantly hypocritical statement I have ever read. Money is STOLEN by corporations by not paying taxes??? How ignorant and thankless can you be? Money is CREATED by these corporations and you owe a huge chunk of your well-being, and quite likely your life, to the existence of said corporations.

Money is created through loans. It's not created by corporations (other than commercial banks who are in the business of loaning).

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#88
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoiler: they aren't. It's an incredibly naive position that many "libertarians" hold. It ignores the direct and indirect benefits that governments provide that support an entity being able to make money that can even be taxed. It's quite a silly position. Now specific taxes could be immoral and debate about the correct amount that it should be all you like... but the concept? No.

So... Your argument is, if the thing taking your money provides you with some benefit it's moral?

I think a better argument is that it's simply not a voluntary contract between two parties. It's theft by one party that has a monopoly on violence to enforce the theft on the other party. Until one day when the other party stops playing by those rules and shoots back.

"But you can vote to change it." If voting changed anything it would be illegal. Only an idiot believes "voting" means anything in a two party system where both parties are identical, and both are funded and given marching orders by massive international corporations. Dollars > votes and you only have the latter.

Re: GNU Taler 0.0.0 released

#90
post #85
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... Your argument is, if the thing taking your money provides you with some benefit it's moral?

No, the argument is that humans are tribal creatures. Imagine going off to live in the woods with a handful of other individuals, 100% off the grid and with only the tools you can carry. Inevitably, it wouldn't be long before you start insisting that everyone help out with farming or hunting or repairs or something. It's literally built into our DNA that individuals should contribute some labor to the betterment of t…

It's not so black and white. You can be against taxes but not want to opt out of civilization. If the government wasn't stealing around 40% of my income, I could spend that money on initiatives that benefit people other than just myself. Money could even be pooled by neighbors to pay for things. The thing is it has to be up to the individual how they spend their money, not left to guys with guns forcing you to hand over your money (the government).
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