Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese • Hacker News Board

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#181

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #52

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

I've thought about this a lot, and I agree with you. I'm a pretty devout Atheist (is that the right term?), but I do recognize the social role that churches play and I wish there was some similar secular organization that could fill that role. Or course there are hobby and special interest groups, but I can't think of just a general gathering where everyone is a regular and friendly like my church was growing up.

> I'm a pretty devout Atheist (is that the right term?), but I do recognize the social role that churches play and I wish there was some similar secular organization that could fill that role.

A number of atheists have felt that, and some have even established groups modeled on the social aspects of churches without the particular theistic views (e.g., Sunday Assembly.)

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#182

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

further_tech wrote: post #72

Startups cannot do a thing. Startups cannot change the fact people abandon their elderly parents. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot make people less egotistical or make them think about the other. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot take the existential anxiety and anger from you. They'll just make it worse.

Your many comments in this thread have had a trollish effect whether you meant to or not. Please don't do that here.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11813571 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#183

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:47 PM UTC

further_tech wrote: post #65

Your argument is dominated by pragmatism, which often obfuscates what religion is all about. Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people. You could gather just as many atheists and the response wouldn't be the same. EDIT: I'm not saying an atheist community would be WORSE than Christianity. I'm saying it would be DIFFERENT from the Christian one.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11813876 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#184

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:49 PM UTC

BEEdwards wrote: post #102

further_tech wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUE…

You are a delusional idiot if you think thank somehow just going to church gives you a blanket "defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc." christians have no problem being exclusionary assholes who punish people for existing. IMO maybe christians should get their shit together before they start tying to convince people they are the only way to have good values.

Religious flamewars are not welcome on Hacker News. Please don't post any more comments like this.

Also, please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11816578.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#185

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

BEEdwards wrote: post #105

further_tech wrote: post #72

Startups cannot do a thing. Startups cannot change the fact people abandon their elderly parents. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot make people less egotistical or make them think about the other. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot take the existential anxiety and anger from you. They'll just make it worse.

WTF are you on? In no way do I think startups are a panacea for the ailments of society, but you do realize that they are made up of people? People can do all the things that you list and more.

> WTF are you on?

Comments like this break the HN guidelines. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#186

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

zellyn wrote: post #55

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

It's so difficult to find a church that (a) values community, and (b) hasn't made some kind of big, public decision against LGBTQ people. And that doesn't preach guilt and condemnation in a thousand overt or subtle ways…

[deleted]

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#187

Post by jdeibele » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 5:57 PM UTC

s_kilk wrote: post #167

huxley wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll find that in some communities, the Universalist Unitarians or liberal/universalist/nontheist Quaker meetings might fit the need. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers I've known several atheists/agnostics that go to both locally and the few times I've gone to either the meetings tend to be quite low in dogma. Not my thing, but if you crave that sort of commu…

Thumbs-up for mentioning the Quakers. I'm not a believer at all, but they're generally great people and super non-preachy.

There's at least a couple of kinds of Quakers: ones with ministers and ones without. My wife belongs to a Meeting that doesn't have a minister. Instead of having someone preach, the attenders sit silently in a circle. If someone is moved to say something, they stand up and say it. Sometimes one or more people will respond.

Meeting decisions have to be unanimous. It's a real source of frustration at times trying to convince the last holdout.

Instead of a minister, they have a clerk. The clerk is elected and coordinates the church for a year.

Before we were married, we had to meet several times with a clearance committee that had to say that we were ready to marry. I understand many ministers do something similar but this was a great thing. One of the members said it used to be a way that parents could stall a marriage - things were different 200 years ago with teenagers wanting to get married. (My wife and I were 33 and 39.)

I remember reading an article about calling "root" "clerk" as a way to deter your boss from asking for root privileges.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#188

Post by ZeroGravitas » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:02 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #147

kerkeslager wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see a public discussion on this. Intuitively, I think you could be right that church participation brings about happiness and reduces alienation, but it's hard to discuss in a complete void of data. I admit I didn't look very hard, but a quick search only yielded a Pew Research study which showed that weekly church attendance was correlated with happiness, but being in good health had a much stronger corr…

> Church attendance isn't available to everyone. Specifically, LGBTQ folks are often excluded. I have been to a lot of churches and I've never seen this happen. > Why do people believe that this is unpopular to discuss? The Bible offends people. And it's very strange to discuss church participation without discussing God and the Bible. For example, I believe creating a godless (or even God agnostic) church will be ul…

What's your opinion on Unitarians? They seem to fit your description and have been around for a wile.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#189

Post by bargl » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 6:55 PM UTC

khedoros wrote: post #174

bargl wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Ex-Christian, I miss the "third place" but I do not miss the church. I don't know where to get that same idea for my kids but I also don't want them growing up with a belief in the doctrine I grew up with. I also have strong feelings about what religions my child is exposed to. I don't mind him being exposed to multiple religions, but there are certain religions I would consider secondary and don't want to be h…

I have some co-workers who attend a kind of spiritual-social group. It's designed as a kind of third place for those who choose to avoid the Christian tradition. I haven't been, so maybe I'm wrong about there being any kind of spiritual focus to the group, but I might describe my coworkers as an ex-Christian (who's fairly bitter about it) and...well, the other guy, I'm not sure. Maybe "theist"? My impression was that…

Do they have a name or some sort of label to easily identify the group so I could do a search for something similar in my area?

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#190

Post by RyanMcGreal » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 7:02 PM UTC

bargl wrote: post #115

rebeccaskinner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in a lot of places churches have served as a defactor "third place" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place ) for communities. It seems like the decline in church attendance mirrors the decline in a lot of third place spaces. None of my grandparents ever attended church with any regularity, but I know that they were all involved in various social and community activities with the types of clubs that don't…

As an Ex-Christian, I miss the "third place" but I do not miss the church. I don't know where to get that same idea for my kids but I also don't want them growing up with a belief in the doctrine I grew up with. I also have strong feelings about what religions my child is exposed to. I don't mind him being exposed to multiple religions, but there are certain religions I would consider secondary and don't want to be h…

You could see if there is a local Unitarian Church. The Unitarians are bound by a shared commitment to loving inclusiveness, not religious dogma, and many Unitarians are agnostic or even atheist.