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Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

nautil.us

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Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#141

Post by jlj »

twoquestions wrote: post #48
brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

The problem with church is that it demands submission in exchange for community. Not only believe this way, but dress this way, eat this way, vote this way, and if you're in any way different you're as cut off as you would be if you stayed home, and if you're having hard times you must have done something to deserve it. I'm from Ohio so it may be different up here, but that's my experience.

"The problem with church..."

There are a wide spectrum of beliefs and interpretations across denominations, far beyond Orthodox , liberal, etc. And the quality of the delivery is still up to the people at the pulpit. A bad experience at one church or denomination should not be a generalization of all churches/religions.

If you feel that something is being imposed on you, that particular church may not be the best fit for you. Or you may be hearing something that is at conflict with the ego, or with an area of personal struggle.

Also YMMV depending on if you view church is a consumer good/service, versus a lifelong shared experience of learning and of putting others before self.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#142

Post by Bartweiss »

minikites wrote: post #12
baron816 wrote: post #4

All these problems (as the author mentions) are closely related to lower rates of social connectedness. This is obviously a huge problem, probably the biggest problem in the advanced world, yet it seems to be mostly ignored. My company, Krewe ( https://www.gokrewe.com ), is addressing it by trying to make it really easy for people to make a new group of friends in their neighborhood and become connected with their lo…

I know a popular meme in SV/tech culture is that apps can solve everything but this is a much harder problem than that, requiring a societal and possibly government response. I don't think you can even begin to address it at the scale of one startup, at best you can skim some money off the top.

This is the sort of issue that the term 'wicked problem' was coined for. It's a unique issue, with society-wide consequences, no clear boundaries, and no clear solutions. Solving it with a startup is unimaginably glib.

Sure, some could probably help, but I imagine they'll either be palliatives (like 7 Cups of Tea) or enablers for human actions (like Skype). I normally assume that "startups will solve it all!" is more of an exaggeration than an actual opinion, but this thread has me doubting myself.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#143

Post by theandrewbailey »

TheLilHipster wrote: post #103

I've been working corporate IT for 4 years now. I'm quite attractive and analytically intelligent, but lack social and emotional intelligence (always been a loner due to childhood circumstances). I feel alienated, I can't relate to others in this rat race. The constant dick waving and competition driven by social media, it's just such a turnoff. Without motivation or passion for games like I used to, life feels empty…

Wow. That sounds similar to how I was, but without the suicide.

I moved into a new neighborhood a few months ago (something I've wanted to do for over 2 years). When the weather started getting nice, I bought a bike and started using it. A lot. I eventually started commuting without a car. I'm not sure if it's the exercise or simply being in sunlight more, but I'm feeling better than I have in 10 years, and I'm much happier. It seems that other feelings are up too, since I'm starting to talk to someone I've had a crush on for years.

Mix things up in your life. Change things. I agree with your thoughts on social media. The way people use it is evil: you only see the good things, but not the everyday boredom and tragedy.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#144

Post by Tactic »

bargl wrote: post #115
rebeccaskinner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in a lot of places churches have served as a defactor "third place" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place ) for communities. It seems like the decline in church attendance mirrors the decline in a lot of third place spaces. None of my grandparents ever attended church with any regularity, but I know that they were all involved in various social and community activities with the types of clubs that don't…

As an Ex-Christian, I miss the "third place" but I do not miss the church. I don't know where to get that same idea for my kids but I also don't want them growing up with a belief in the doctrine I grew up with. I also have strong feelings about what religions my child is exposed to. I don't mind him being exposed to multiple religions, but there are certain religions I would consider secondary and don't want to be h…

Do a search for social clubs in your area. They exist and have with a variety of activities to center around that may interest you. Finding a family-based social club may be more difficult, but not impossible. And of course there are the various computer/programming based meet-ups... which are really social clubs as well ;)

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#145

Post by Bartweiss »

lmm wrote: post #60
distances wrote: post #16

One kind of a record in Finland was a man deceased for six years before anyone noticed. He had already mummified in his bed when found. Even the landlord didn't ask after him, as the rent was automatically paid by social services for this whole time. There's also an English Wikipedia page of the case at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunula_mummy .

I would hope to have the option of disconnecting like that if I wanted to. I don't know about this man's circumstances, but the story implies a level of privacy that I'd find really valuable.

This has become fairly common in Japan, but it seems to be almost exclusively about anomie and depression, not privacy. There are entire companies that exist to clean up after deceased, family-less shut-ins.

I agree that the ability to withdraw and obtain privacy is crucial, but I'd like to see options for privacy and isolation that don't require absolute disconnection.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#146

Post by shepardrtc »

bargl wrote: post #115
rebeccaskinner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in a lot of places churches have served as a defactor "third place" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place ) for communities. It seems like the decline in church attendance mirrors the decline in a lot of third place spaces. None of my grandparents ever attended church with any regularity, but I know that they were all involved in various social and community activities with the types of clubs that don't…

As an Ex-Christian, I miss the "third place" but I do not miss the church. I don't know where to get that same idea for my kids but I also don't want them growing up with a belief in the doctrine I grew up with. I also have strong feelings about what religions my child is exposed to. I don't mind him being exposed to multiple religions, but there are certain religions I would consider secondary and don't want to be h…

When I was young, my parents brought me to church for a little while just for something to do. They believed, but they didn't really care, so it wasn't anything that was discussed in my household. Looking back on it, I only cared what they said, not anyone else, so I ignored all the church BS and just played or whatever.

I think that if you bring your kids to church, they'll still look to you for what to believe (or not to believe!). Be straight with them, though. Tell them that you're just going there to have something to do. My parents pretty much said that and I didn't have any problem with it. Maybe ask them not to repeat that in front of others though.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#147

Post by humanrebar »

kerkeslager wrote: post #70
brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

I'd love to see a public discussion on this. Intuitively, I think you could be right that church participation brings about happiness and reduces alienation, but it's hard to discuss in a complete void of data. I admit I didn't look very hard, but a quick search only yielded a Pew Research study which showed that weekly church attendance was correlated with happiness, but being in good health had a much stronger corr…

> Church attendance isn't available to everyone. Specifically, LGBTQ folks are often excluded.

I have been to a lot of churches and I've never seen this happen.

> Why do people believe that this is unpopular to discuss?

The Bible offends people. And it's very strange to discuss church participation without discussing God and the Bible.

For example, I believe creating a godless (or even God agnostic) church will be ultimately a dead end (at least in the long term). I'd be interested to read any research about these things, but I'm skeptical that it's even possible to study these things scientifically. Church dynamics play out over generations. You really need to watch organizations over many changes of leadership to see if they're really successful.

I realize that some people reading this reach for an empirical, practical approach to discovering whether it's possible to recreate the benefits of church without the theism. I'd be interested to hear what happens, but I suspect we'll all be dead before all the implications of the experiment are known. I'm not sure waiting around for a series of definitive studies is a good plan.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#148

Post by euroclydon »

VLM wrote: post #110
euroclydon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sharing orthodox beliefs may not be an impediment to joining and participating, as you say, but it will be a dividing factor over time, unless you 1) fake it, or 2) go to a liberal church. The problem with liberal churches is they're small and don't grow. People are attracted to confidence, so when the preacher, members and staff continuously and confidently proclaim their certainty in that which is difficult to…

"The problem with liberal churches is they're small and don't grow." Hmm I've actually been to Catholic Mass where the congregation is exclusively white haired and the local prosperity gospel rock music church where the average congregation age must have only been 25. You can guess the long term demographic result. I'll throw out a dissenting opinion to the majority view that only non-mainline churches are possible.…

I mean theologically liberal:

* Not agreeing with the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Suffering

* Not agreeing with Substitutionary Atonement

* Not agreeing with the Exclusivity of Salvation through Christ

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#149

Post by Bartweiss »

stonemetal wrote: post #10
simonbarker87 wrote: post #5

Not the main focus of the article but I've been wondering lately why Japan is considered to have done poorly over the last 30 years economically when a lot of the big multi national brands that are very popular all over the world during that period are Japanese. I'm not an economist (or Japanese) but from the outside when you can list Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Suburu, Shimano, Nintendo, Hitachi, Yamaha, Sega and Mu…

While they may be Japanese brands they aren't Japanese companies, they are multi-nationals. Much like the US they have outsourced all of their manufacturing. A strong Honda that manufactures their motorcycles in Thailand and their cars in North America doesn't translate into robust Japanese employment. Fewer local jobs means less money going into the local economy.

On some level, Japan's story isn't one of high hopes and stagnant results, it's one of amazing growth in face of reality. Even in our tech-rich, service-driven economies, national growth is still largely a function of population, space, and resources. Over a half-century, Japan modernized to near the peak of first world nations on a crowded, resource-poor island. With that played out, they're sustaining their position largely by adding value to the workforces and production capacities of other nations. You're absolutely right that a lot of Japan's corporate strength doesn't translate to GDP growth, but even flat GDP is damned impressive in a lot of ways.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#150

Post by humanrebar »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #111
further_tech wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUE…

> I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians", it has nothing to do with them. No true Scotsman!

The goalposts have to move within the conversation for a "no true Scotsman" to apply. On the contrary, establishing language that lets us distinguish between groups of people is a healthy way to promote understanding.
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