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World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

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Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#141

Post by SilasX »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #113
Annatar wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about how whatever it is they are doing is going to work, and once they either ran proof of concept tests or thought it through, they set the machinery in motion. There will even be a clearly documented process for modelling the process, and a process for getting the…

I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that i…

They both still do rail a lot cheaper, faster, and better than the US :-/

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#142

Post by Jtsummers »

abduhl wrote: post #124
otterley wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want infrastructure engineering to be like poker, and neither should you. The only way in which they are alike is that there is a strong possibility of someone getting killed if you cheat.

I 100% want engineering to be like poker. I say that as a registered professional engineer with many friends on crews currently standing in holes that I have designed. Understand what I mean when I say "like poker": the poker mindset is a very analytical, statistically oriented approach. The best players never make a bet/call/fold without some form of logical basis for their plays. They have an internal model that te…

If we set aside the 50% part as non-literal, OP described planning, not designing. Planning includes risk analysis and mitigation. And even in designing we include risk mitigation and elimination. We put in safety factors (component must be able to support 3x target weight, and such).

Everything else you described about risk is not unique to poker. In engineering, particularly major projects with real safety concerns, it's risk analysis. This component has a 4% chance of failing in this way, so add redundancy to mitigate it. Put in 10 sensors instead of 4, and require a consensus algorithm to reduce the risks from sensor failure or misreporting.

In engineering we do gamble, on a lot of things. But it's not a pure gamble, we aren't just throwing dice. We plan, prepare, rehearse, and execute.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#143

Post by soperj »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #113
Annatar wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about how whatever it is they are doing is going to work, and once they either ran proof of concept tests or thought it through, they set the machinery in motion. There will even be a clearly documented process for modelling the process, and a process for getting the…

I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that i…

It's interesting because I feel like 20 years ago that Germany was in the same vein as the swiss, things were completed on time and on budget, always. I don't know what's changed.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#144

Post by Analemma_ »

tajen wrote: post #66
piquadrat wrote: post #17

There's a great 360° video on Youtube that shows both the tunnel as well as the Gotthard massif through which the tunnel leads. It's in German, but the visuals are impressive on their own. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDSCtXvL51o

OMG I just understood what you meant with 360! You can swipe to the direction you want, like in Quicktime VR, but animated! I didn't know Youtube made it possible! The video was just showing the rails, I thought it was boring until I understood the concept.

If you've got a recent-ish smartphone, I would highly recommend getting yourself a Google Cardboard for watching YouTube 360 videos, it really makes it even cooler. Yeah it's "poor man's VR" and certainly not in the same league as things like the Rift/Vive, but it's 15 bucks, so why not? I definitely feel like I've gotten 15 bucks worth of use out of mine, mostly because of videos like this.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#145

Post by reitanqild »

abduhl wrote: post #111
mistermann wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is not a safe space. Disagree fine, but please don't try to outlaw speech because it's "disrespectful".

I completely agree, HN is not a safe space. That is why I feel justified in blatantly calling out a comment I see as disrespectful. I didn't try to "outlaw" his comment - I upvoted the comment, as I upvote any comment I feel encourages or needs discussion.

I too upvoted this. Your other posts I didn't touch, either because I don't feel qualified to judge them or because I didn't agree.

As others I found you somewhat incendiary but I am still surprised by the massive downvoting you seem to have experienced :-/

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#146

Post by beefman »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #113
Annatar wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about how whatever it is they are doing is going to work, and once they either ran proof of concept tests or thought it through, they set the machinery in motion. There will even be a clearly documented process for modelling the process, and a process for getting the…

I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that i…

Having a GDP/capita nearly double that of Germany probably helps too.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#147

Post by stevekemp »

Olap84 wrote: post #12
tellarin wrote: post #3

"... longest and deepest rail tunnel ..." and "... delivered on time and within budget ..." Only in Switzerland, I guess. :) I wish there were better write ups of how the planning for this came together and what differs from other somewhat similar huge projects.

Scotland's latest bridge coming in under budget and on time even: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensferry_Crossing

That almost makes up for the over-spends on the Edinburgh trams, and the Scottish Parliament!

(Speaking as an Edinburgh bloke who lived through the significant disruption down Leith Walk for a tramline that was never built; I'm not bitter. Though nowadays I live abroad. In a city with multiple tram-lines.)

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#148

Post by bogomipz »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #113
Annatar wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about how whatever it is they are doing is going to work, and once they either ran proof of concept tests or thought it through, they set the machinery in motion. There will even be a clearly documented process for modelling the process, and a process for getting the…

I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise: Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum. When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that i…

Really there's a referendum on all big projects? Is this governed by a certain threshold i.e above amount X it gets put to referendum? That's pretty awesome if so. In the US this done in a back room away from public view it has various names - pork barrel politics, horse trading, etc. And such allocations are often tacked onto other legislation that might have nothing to do with the project.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#149

Post by abduhl »

Jtsummers wrote: post #142
abduhl wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% want engineering to be like poker. I say that as a registered professional engineer with many friends on crews currently standing in holes that I have designed. Understand what I mean when I say "like poker": the poker mindset is a very analytical, statistically oriented approach. The best players never make a bet/call/fold without some form of logical basis for their plays. They have an internal model that te…

If we set aside the 50% part as non-literal, OP described planning, not designing. Planning includes risk analysis and mitigation. And even in designing we include risk mitigation and elimination. We put in safety factors (component must be able to support 3x target weight, and such). Everything else you described about risk is not unique to poker. In engineering, particularly major projects with real safety concerns…

We agree with each other. The other poster is the one who did not recognize the similarities between a poker mindset and an engineering mindset. I am well aware of how risk mitigation, planning, and safety factors roll themselves into engineering.

And a bit of a nitpick, but we are just throwing dice. The entire idea of a safety factor is an abstraction to get away from statistics which is why it has been almost completely replaced in structural engineering with LRFD which is based on statistical analyses of component/system failures.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#150

Post by TulliusCicero »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #132
tellarin wrote: post #3

"... longest and deepest rail tunnel ..." and "... delivered on time and within budget ..." Only in Switzerland, I guess. :) I wish there were better write ups of how the planning for this came together and what differs from other somewhat similar huge projects.

The Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco was delivered ahead of schedule, and within budget. 80+ years ago.

And only eleven people died building it!
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