Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 170 posts

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#111

Post by abduhl »

mistermann wrote: post #105
abduhl wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the comment but your recommendation is unnecessary - from reading your post it is clear that the major components of my complaint were understood without issue. Disrespect occurs with or without intent. The original poster's comment can only be construed in one way: the Swiss do things this way, it is better, and therefore everybody else does it wrong. The claim (50% spent on planning) is clearly and de…

HN is not a safe space. Disagree fine, but please don't try to outlaw speech because it's "disrespectful".

I completely agree, HN is not a safe space. That is why I feel justified in blatantly calling out a comment I see as disrespectful. I didn't try to "outlaw" his comment - I upvoted the comment, as I upvote any comment I feel encourages or needs discussion.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#112

Post by tobltobs »

abduhl wrote: post #76
sschueller wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a bit on wikipedia[1] (more in the german version). The project wasn't with out Problems but because of such strict planning they could be solved. For example one of the TBM's got stuck for months, another issues such as sub contractors delivering fraudulent materials also had to be dealt with. [2] Although the Swiss part went well there are issues with the connection in Germany and Italy. Some projects in I…

I don't read German so maybe this is covered in your article but what does strict planning have to do with getting a TBM unstuck or fraudulent materials? Wouldn't these issues point towards a lack of planning/quality control?

> Wouldn't these issues point towards a lack of planning/quality control?

If your car engine breaks down you did a bad route planning?

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#113

Post by CaptainZapp »

Annatar wrote: post #68
tellarin wrote: post #3

"... longest and deepest rail tunnel ..." and "... delivered on time and within budget ..." Only in Switzerland, I guess. :) I wish there were better write ups of how the planning for this came together and what differs from other somewhat similar huge projects.

That is typical for Switzerland, and it is because for the Swiss, "planning is 50% of the work". They invest the time up-front in planning and thinking about how whatever it is they are doing is going to work, and once they either ran proof of concept tests or thought it through, they set the machinery in motion. There will even be a clearly documented process for modelling the process, and a process for getting the…

I'd wager that there's another reason why big projects are usually pretty successful in Switzerland; time - and budget wise:

Political legitimacy, signed off by popular referendum.

When you look north to our German neighbors, with a comparable work ethos and certainly a fair understanding of engineering you see projects go south again and again. Be it Stuttgart 21 (the new train station), or that horrible mess that is the airport Berlin Brandenburg.

Such projects usually require popular support via referendum in Switzerland. That means that if it is voted through this implies that the necessary capital investments are spoken for and that the project is legitimized via public support.

This also means that if the government changes they can't just massage budget positions and siphon funds of such projects for political expedience, or other reasons.

Legitimacy also avoids public resistance against the projects as it happened in Stuttgart and which almost killed the project (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21#Debate_and_opposi...).

That's not to say that all big projects in Switzerland work like a charm. But political legimacy and honest budgeting that comes with it seem major factors that such projects are succesful more often than not.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#114

Post by abduhl »

Annatar wrote: post #102
abduhl wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't read German so maybe this is covered in your article but what does strict planning have to do with getting a TBM unstuck or fraudulent materials? Wouldn't these issues point towards a lack of planning/quality control?

Well if they caught it then there was quality control after all, wasn't there?

As I note, I can't read German so I don't know what or when the fraudulent materials were caught. If they weren't caught until they were installed then no, there wasn't proper quality control.

My more important question is how does catching fraudulent materials have anything to do with strict planning?

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#115

Post by jakub_g »

icebraining wrote: post #95
j4_james wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, it works for me in Firefox on Windows 10. Click and drag with the mouse, clicking on the arrows, or swiping on a touchscreen all work fine.

Same here with FF 46 on Ubuntu.

Ok turns out I had webgl disabled in Firefox in about:config. False alarm.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#116

Post by andrepd »

mistermann wrote: post #105
abduhl wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the comment but your recommendation is unnecessary - from reading your post it is clear that the major components of my complaint were understood without issue. Disrespect occurs with or without intent. The original poster's comment can only be construed in one way: the Swiss do things this way, it is better, and therefore everybody else does it wrong. The claim (50% spent on planning) is clearly and de…

HN is not a safe space. Disagree fine, but please don't try to outlaw speech because it's "disrespectful".

Don't try to outlaw speech because it's disrespectful, and don't try to outlaw dissent because it's critical of disrespectfulness. Goes both ways.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#117

Post by snowwolf »

tellarin wrote: post #3

"... longest and deepest rail tunnel ..." and "... delivered on time and within budget ..." Only in Switzerland, I guess. :) I wish there were better write ups of how the planning for this came together and what differs from other somewhat similar huge projects.

"... delivered on time and within budget ..."

So for a project of this scale and timeline, they managed to use up exactly all the budget... (I assume it would say under/over budget if it was a significant amount off).

What are the odds of predicting correctly the cost of a 20 year project especially given the volatility of markets over the last 20 years?

I suspect either some corners were cut, or some contractors started padding out the bills towards the end...

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#118

Post by abduhl »

otterley wrote: post #106
abduhl wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the comment but your recommendation is unnecessary - from reading your post it is clear that the major components of my complaint were understood without issue. Disrespect occurs with or without intent. The original poster's comment can only be construed in one way: the Swiss do things this way, it is better, and therefore everybody else does it wrong. The claim (50% spent on planning) is clearly and de…

The opinion being raised here is that the overall system the Swiss are using provides better results than those others are using. It's not necessarily that others don't put forth effort (despite the language), but that the Swiss yield the kind of results that others don't. Most people aren't judged by effort. They're judged by results. Another way of putting it: the proof of the engineering is in the working.

The opinion being raised here is not supported by evidence. The only testable claim that can be evaluated in the original poster's comment is that, in the Swiss system, planning is 50% of the work. I ask specifically for any breakdown of cost or schedule, the two metrics by which all public work is judged, where planning occupies 50% of the work.

Simply looking at an isolated example of a project that was on schedule and under budget (for varying definitions of schedule and budget, but that's how it goes in construction - the Seattle SR 99 replacement tunnel project along with the Seawall replacement is currently "on schedule" if you believe the management of those projects) does not provide the data to back up the poster's statement. Without the data we cannot adequately make the determination if the "Swiss system" described by the poster is better than any other system.

There is a saying in the poker community: don't be results oriented.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#119

Post by bjelkeman-again »

Numberwang wrote: post #19
bjelkeman-again wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A much shorter tunnel, but with two new underground train stations, is being built under Stockholm, Sweden.[1] It is about 1/6 of the Swiss budget (about $2 billion). It will be completed on budget and slightly ahead of time this year.[2] So it can be done. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_City_Line [2] in Swedish. http://framtidensinfrastruktur.se/artikel/snart-fardigbyggt-...

But most often, even in Sweden, it is not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallands%C3%A5s_Tunnel

Indeed projects in Sweden run över budget too. I was saying "it can be done" not that it is always successful. Other recent successes:

Norra länken 2.6 Bn SEK under budget (part of circle road around Stockholm). [1][2] Arlandabanan (train service to Stockholm AirPort), on time and on budget. [3]

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norra_länken

[2] https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norra_länken

[3] https://www.arlandaexpress.com/default.aspx?page=88&id=34

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#120

Post by CaptainZapp »

tobltobs wrote: post #112
abduhl wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't read German so maybe this is covered in your article but what does strict planning have to do with getting a TBM unstuck or fraudulent materials? Wouldn't these issues point towards a lack of planning/quality control?

> Wouldn't these issues point towards a lack of planning/quality control? If your car engine breaks down you did a bad route planning?

There are things that can't be planned for.

One of the major problems detected was the fact that they had to drill through dolostone, which is a huge technological challenge. When mixed with water it results in a soupy mixture, which is almost impossible to work with in drilling a tunnel.

The did exploration drillings in 1993, but engineers where still pretty worried.

It was only in 2008 that the engineers lost the last of their concerns.

Such a huge project comes with technical uncertainties. What do you want to do about it?

Post reply on HN