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World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

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Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#121

Post by otterley »

abduhl wrote: post #118
otterley wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opinion being raised here is that the overall system the Swiss are using provides better results than those others are using. It's not necessarily that others don't put forth effort (despite the language), but that the Swiss yield the kind of results that others don't. Most people aren't judged by effort. They're judged by results. Another way of putting it: the proof of the engineering is in the working.

The opinion being raised here is not supported by evidence. The only testable claim that can be evaluated in the original poster's comment is that, in the Swiss system, planning is 50% of the work. I ask specifically for any breakdown of cost or schedule, the two metrics by which all public work is judged, where planning occupies 50% of the work. Simply looking at an isolated example of a project that was on schedule…

I don't want infrastructure engineering to be like poker, and neither should you. The only way in which they are alike is that there is a strong possibility of someone getting killed if you cheat.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#122

Post by elithrar »

abduhl wrote: post #97
swombat wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems a bit harsh to me to call this "incredibly disrespectful". I doubt that "incredible disrespect" was intended, nor is it inherent to the statement. What I think you mean is that the grandparent comment strikes you personally as not recognising the efforts of other engineers around the world, and you wish it did. I think that would be a less incendiary and aggressive way to get your point across, and, in most…

Thank you for the comment but your recommendation is unnecessary - from reading your post it is clear that the major components of my complaint were understood without issue. Disrespect occurs with or without intent. The original poster's comment can only be construed in one way: the Swiss do things this way, it is better, and therefore everybody else does it wrong. The claim (50% spent on planning) is clearly and de…

Focusing on the "50% planning" comment is wrong, and it's likely an exaggeration. What you should be asking is evidence of Swiss public works projects meeting time & budget constraints vs. projects in other countries, which is the key takeaway here.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#123

Post by elcapitan »

pantalaimon wrote: post #107
sanoli wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To all you western europeans complaining: come down to Brazil, and I'll take you on a tour of our "Top Ten Most Abandoned-Halfway Billion Dollar Government Works" ;-) Oh, and just to give an example, the construction of one of our nuclear power plants began in 1984 but was halted in 1986, only to begin where it left off in 2010, to be finished in 2015. Wait, now it is in 2016. Nope, just checked, it should be in 2018…

Well construction of the Cologne Cathedral started in 1248 and was halted in 1473, only to begin where it left off in 1842 and was eventually completed in 1880 - so don't give up hope ;)

And it was totally worth the little wait!

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#124

Post by abduhl »

otterley wrote: post #121
abduhl wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opinion being raised here is not supported by evidence. The only testable claim that can be evaluated in the original poster's comment is that, in the Swiss system, planning is 50% of the work. I ask specifically for any breakdown of cost or schedule, the two metrics by which all public work is judged, where planning occupies 50% of the work. Simply looking at an isolated example of a project that was on schedule…

I don't want infrastructure engineering to be like poker, and neither should you. The only way in which they are alike is that there is a strong possibility of someone getting killed if you cheat.

I 100% want engineering to be like poker. I say that as a registered professional engineer with many friends on crews currently standing in holes that I have designed.

Understand what I mean when I say "like poker": the poker mindset is a very analytical, statistically oriented approach. The best players never make a bet/call/fold without some form of logical basis for their plays. They have an internal model that tells them "this play will succeed 50% of the time and I stand to win 3x my risked value and so it is profitable". Similarly in engineering, no decision should be made without an internal model where risk can be evaluated - "this structure will fail 5% of the time and kill somebody but it costs $10,000,000 to get more out of it and so it is not profitable".

Engineering - especially tunneling - is a gamble. You cannot design away every risk. All we can do is show up with our belts and suspenders on and hope our pants don't fall down when we're running out of the hole.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#125

Post by MagnumOpus »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #36
harryf wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how much time approximately will be saved vs the existing routes?

It cuts the Zürich-Milan journey time for passenger trains by about an hour (from 173 to 111 minutes) accelerating train trips from Germany/Switzerland to Italy significantly.

Self-correction: It cuts the Zürich-Lugano journey time from 173 to 111 minutes rather than Zürich-Milan (which still takes longer). Though it does cut journey times for the latter by an hour too.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#126

Post by Shivetya »

elcapitan wrote: post #15
sschueller wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a bit on wikipedia[1] (more in the german version). The project wasn't with out Problems but because of such strict planning they could be solved. For example one of the TBM's got stuck for months, another issues such as sub contractors delivering fraudulent materials also had to be dealt with. [2] Although the Swiss part went well there are issues with the connection in Germany and Italy. Some projects in I…

It's amazing how hot it is in some places underground, up to 44C. Wow.

I am curious that if we do get to Mars can we simply dig down or go under a mountain for warmth? You would not need a full on tunnel, just a system similar to geothermal heating

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#127

Post by MagnumOpus »

piquadrat wrote: post #48
MagnumOpus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It cuts the Zürich-Milan journey time for passenger trains by about an hour (from 173 to 111 minutes) accelerating train trips from Germany/Switzerland to Italy significantly.

I heard numbers of 45 minutes less for Zurich-Milan. Maybe your number already includes the Ceneri Base Tunnel[1], to be opened in 2020? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceneri_Base_Tunnel

Indeed you are right - I got my number from 24heures.ch, and it is comparing the number before both tunnels vs. the time after both are open:

http://www.24heures.ch/suisse/Le-tunnel-de-base-du-Gothard-r...

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#129

Post by andy_ppp »

tobltobs wrote: post #82
andy_ppp wrote: post #72

It seems as if Europe has most of the worlds great infrastructure projects going on right now, with this and Cross Rail. Is there anything of similar scale going on in the US, China or India? EDIT: Answering my own question... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transport_megaprojects and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megaprojects

The irony is that this tunnel is part of bigger project, a fast north to south rail connection from Germany to Italy. But Germany nor Italy made any progress until today. Just north of the border the high speed trains have to slow down to 60km/h for about half an hour, because this part of the railway track is still from the sixties. The same on the south in Italy. And it doesn't look like this will ever change. Thos…

Ha, brilliant - I always thought it was just the UK that had this problem. End to end high speed rail is hard and embarrassment on behalf of governments is a good motivating factor.

Re: World's longest and deepest rail tunnel to open in Switzerland

#130

Post by lmm »

planetjones wrote: post #43
MagnumOpus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It cuts the Zürich-Milan journey time for passenger trains by about an hour (from 173 to 111 minutes) accelerating train trips from Germany/Switzerland to Italy significantly.

I don't get this. Zurich is in Switzerland. I don't think even with this tunnel opening we will be getting from Zurich to Milan in under 2 hours... Are your numbers wrong? Edit: we will be looking at journey times of about 170 minutes from Zurich to Milan AFTER the tunnel opens.

The TGV Paris-Lyon takes less than 2 hours to cover a substantially longer distance.
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