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Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

nautil.us

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Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#91

Post by dragonwriter »

further_tech wrote: post #87
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people You don't give athiests and agnostics enough credit. Religion is not required for morals and community values.

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUE…

Maybe some Christians have those, but -- and I say this as a Christian -- it's far from true that all members of Christian faith traditions have those.

So you haven't really pointed to a real difference.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#92

Post by sbardle »

There was a recent study into the male suicide rate in Northern Ireland. It has boomed since the end of the Troubles. Historically, war has given men a sense of belonging. But it's not a great trade-off. The church can in theory be a good place to build social cohesion, but in the UK it is mired in cultural politics, so many people choose to avoid it.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#93

Post by paulcole »

lmm wrote: post #58
minikites wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>remained single most of my life despite my other successes I think the media has a role to play here too, the idea that you need romantic love in order to be successful or complete is a toxic one. Edit: a lot of replies to my comment are misinterpreting what I'm saying as "romance is a new idea invented by the media" when all I said is that it's possible to have a complete and successful life without romance.

Interestingly that's a lot less the case in Japanese media IME. E.g. Honey and Clover concludes (spoilers) with Hagu deciding to pursue her art instead of a romantic relationship, which I can't imagine happening in a western movie or tv show.

Gilmore Girls ended this way.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#94

Post by conjectures »

iofj wrote: post #82
iSnow wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a lot of countries - Germany, Britain, France to be sure - the pub is such a third place, especially for men. Their special culture seems to be in decline as well, but not as dramatically as churches.

Well the pub has several problems - social stigma for one, and not being free (and in fact being quite expensive 20/30 euros per evening is not much) And as you say pub attendance is down by a lot too.

There's no significant social stigma to going to the pub socially in the UK.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#95

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

further_tech wrote: post #87
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people You don't give athiests and agnostics enough credit. Religion is not required for morals and community values.

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc. Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way. IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it. EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness. I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUE…

I remember my mother telling stories about her mother putting out her cigarette in the car and spraying perfume on herself and her kids before going to church every sunday so that no one would know she was smoking.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#96

Post by cableshaft »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #54
brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

Churches are definitely a great community resource, but I imagine that many people (myself included) don't want to be preached something we don't believe in every week even if it means losing out on those community benefits. I wonder if something else could be established, or even if such a thing as "athiest/agnostic churches" could be organized.

Or just a community space with rooms that people can set things up in. Libraries kind of fill that role today, but you have to reserve the rooms sometimes a year in advance. I mean more a place where you go, say 'this empty room is going to be used to play games for the next two hours' or 'we're going to set up some punch and cookies here for people to socialize for an hour' or whatever, and you're good. Maybe be able to set things up on a weekly basis or something, so you can have a regular, predictable event people can attend.

I know there's plenty of meetup groups, for example, that have a hard time finding spaces that can host 40 or more people at a time, that doesn't cost like $50 to reserve ahead of time or have to be reserved almost a year in advance. I've been wanting to do a meet and greet for my group for months and haven't been able to find a good space for it.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#97

Post by GarvielLoken »

lmm wrote: post #58
minikites wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>remained single most of my life despite my other successes I think the media has a role to play here too, the idea that you need romantic love in order to be successful or complete is a toxic one. Edit: a lot of replies to my comment are misinterpreting what I'm saying as "romance is a new idea invented by the media" when all I said is that it's possible to have a complete and successful life without romance.

Interestingly that's a lot less the case in Japanese media IME. E.g. Honey and Clover concludes (spoilers) with Hagu deciding to pursue her art instead of a romantic relationship, which I can't imagine happening in a western movie or tv show.

Have you seen the movie Whiplash from 2014?

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#98

Post by further_tech »

baron816 wrote: post #77
further_tech wrote: post #72

Startups cannot do a thing. Startups cannot change the fact people abandon their elderly parents. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot make people less egotistical or make them think about the other. They'll just make it worse. Startups cannot take the existential anxiety and anger from you. They'll just make it worse.

Why not?

Well... that's an extremely arrogant question.

Can a startup change the core of human nature? Can it change thousands of years of Philosophy? Can it change our socio-economic background? Can it change history?

If you can, then... dear Lord... this is Apotheosis.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#99

Post by cousin_it »

baron816 wrote: post #44
cousin_it wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine an old depressed person who needs a daily dose of human empathy, just like everyone else, but can't give anything in return. Can your startup help such a person? I'm with the other commenter, this is a societal problem. To make even a small dent, we need an army of volunteers with calliagnosia or Williams syndrome, or something even more drastic...

I don't know for sure if it's possible to use an app to help those kinds of people, but I honestly believe that it doesn't take much more than a comfortable environment and convenient access to people to bring them together. I'm at least giving it a shot.

Bringing depressed people together doesn't help them. They need attention from non-depressed people, who abandoned them for the freedom of modernity. Solving this problem won't be win-win, so a startup won't help. Just like you can't make a startup to redistribute money from rich people to poor people. It's a task for charity or government.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#100

Post by zellyn »

Jtsummers wrote: post #90
zellyn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We lasted about five minutes in the Episcopal church near us. Our two-and-a-half year old was happily talking about the stained glass windows (months later, he still talks about them), when someone came up to "helpfully" tell us where the nursery was. "People are trying to be prayerful." She was slightly confused when we headed towards the exit rather than the nursery. I think we're going to give it another try - we'…

There seems to be someone "helpful" like that in every church. Unless your kid is truly disruptive (running around, damaging things), the best thing to do is ignore the "helper" and try to keep your kid focused on something that'll quiet them down, or keep them seated/near you. But kids talk, you can't stop that, and oftentimes don't want to.

Heh. Our kid stops talking when he's asleep. Mostly.
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