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China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

washingtonpost.com

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Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#151

Post by bovermyer »

bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

The moment we stop talking to people we want to change, then we lose all hope of doing so.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#152

Post by Hondor »

kristopolous wrote: post #146
bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

If a country has labor laws out of ostensible humanitarianism but then permits the sale of competing products made where no such laws exist, then it really isn't principled.

You're assuming that people everywhere value their working conditions equally. They don't. If you already have plenty of money for food, shelter and health care, then you can start worrying about workplace safety and comfort. Otherwise, you'll probably tolerate longer work hours if it's the only way to feed your family or care for your sick grandparents. Boycotting those countries is only going to make their population's more serious problems even worse.

If you really care about people, let them move into your comfortable safe country and share it with you. I mean all of them, not just the few highly educated and wealthy.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#153

Post by tvanantwerp »

bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

I've got family in China. They're just regular people trying to make in the world, same as me and most everyone else reading this. I'm no fan of the government there, but that's no reason to not work with the people who have little choice but to live under it.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#154

Post by dragontamer »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #106
studentrob wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the fundamental problem with democracy: people are easily influenced That's not a problem with democracy. It's how people learn. We learn something and form an opinion about it. The problem comes when only certain media sources are allowed. In that case, it's harder for people to discuss alternate viewpoints

No, the problem isn't when only certain media sources are allowed - honestly, the problem is when any media sources are allowed at all. Frankly, I think Amercians are as deceived by propaganda as the Chinese. Did we somehow forget in this thread that in western press, one can rarely find an article that isn't full of bullshit? Even if the reasons differ (western media do this for profit), the end result is the same.

Is this Washington Post article "full of bullshit"?

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#155

Post by kristopolous »

Hondor wrote: post #152
kristopolous wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a country has labor laws out of ostensible humanitarianism but then permits the sale of competing products made where no such laws exist, then it really isn't principled.

You're assuming that people everywhere value their working conditions equally. They don't. If you already have plenty of money for food, shelter and health care, then you can start worrying about workplace safety and comfort. Otherwise, you'll probably tolerate longer work hours if it's the only way to feed your family or care for your sick grandparents. Boycotting those countries is only going to make their populati…

Human rights are rights for humans - not just a luxury of those with free time and money. If people can be coerced to waiving their rights, then the mechanism of oppression changes - not the oppression itself.

Second, boycotting isn't as effective as demands. When consumer bases set labor, environmental and other standards on imports, historically speaking, compliance follows.

Lastly, I'd welcome lots of immigrants. No problem. I want more of them.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#156

Post by restalis »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #86
bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

> The far more aggravating thing is that we tolerate China, choose to do business with Chinese companies and buy Chinese products. A trade embargo (aka cold war) would be a lot worse for everyone involved.. Leads to arms race and threats of war, even less freedom and more injustice for the people (eg North Korea). > we are trading our values, for which people freaking died to win, for short term convenience .. Yeah,…

"Don't get carried away with "dying for .. something", most often this is not true - most died because delusional leaders sent them into battle ... only after the fact their death got dressed into "honorable cause".."

There is a broad spectrum of (personal) causes that leads one to follow an order which inherently brings with it the risk of dying. Many deaths were of people that did not had any real choice other than avoiding prosecution (which sometimes involved certain death). Many where brain washed by propaganda. Maybe not that many actually trusted in their war masters if not understanding themselves what they are fighting (and dying) for. Some, however, might have had an understanding of the cause behind the fights they were involved in, and being seduced by pure ideas/ideals rolled on as true volunteers. It's not that nice to make this distinction when talking about the dead and for the sake of it they choose to elevate all the victims to the last category, of heroes (in ideals).

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#158

Post by kingkawn »

bad_user wrote: post #67

Of course it does. I wouldn't bet that it will last though. I often tell people how I was born under communism and that what happened before 1989 in Romania and maybe in other Easter European countries makes the 1984 novel seem unrealistic and boring. We had far worst forms of censorship and propaganda, paranoia about being caught with doublethink by nosy neighbors was at al times high, yet everything looked normal,…

I think after the collapse of any social system the hindsight would appear to show nothing but discontent. If the U.S. underwent the same social reordering that the former USSR did there would be a cultural tsunami of prescient signs that went tragically undiscussed due to the obviously blind and limiting social order.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#159

Post by dragontamer »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #45
IIAOPSW wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a guest in this country. Irrespective of what I believe is right or unalienable it is not my place to insert myself into their politics.

Ever? I'm hesitant to invoke Godwin here, but do you agree that at least in boundary cases, it's morally permissible to directly force a change in the internal politics of another country?

If he's an American citizen, then he should just leave if things become really bad.

Re: China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the Internet works

#160

Post by dragontamer »

chj wrote: post #68
jondubois wrote: post #33

The Great Firewall actually makes a lot of sense. Everyone thinks of themselves as being rational and unbiased - But in fact, we are all irrational, biased and at times hypocritical. Those people who think that they are rational and objective are usually the least rational and most hypocritical of all because they lack self-awareness. As westerners, as much as we like to pretend that we know the whole truth, in reali…

> The Great Firewall actually makes a lot of sense To whom? Isolation won't do any good in the long run.

20 years seems like a good run so far.
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