The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It • Hacker News Board

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#101

Post by marincounty » Thu, May 12, 2016, 4:36 AM UTC

klean92 wrote: post #37

rsp1984 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I respectfully disagree with you. Money has been taken from citizens by the authorities in an unlawful manner. Money has to be given back. I don't know what more to say about this matter. If I steal 200$ out of your pocket and you find out, my feeling is you would want your money back, not an apology and my heartfelt assurance that it won't happen again...

I am afraid it would cost $2M to try to pay back $1.7M... i think they should first spend their time and $$ in making sure they fix the issues going forward.

Make them pay from the top down. Don't decimate a department, but make it sting.

Make it sting so much, cops/meter maids know their municipal codes/law to the tee. It's not even about laws? We all know it's about revenue collection. That's why we are a bit miffed.

I think the bigger problem is how many of us have been pulled over for no reason, ticketed for no reason, harrrased for no reason, paid a huge fee--that was for all reasonable purposes was unconstitutional--someting about ureasonable fees, or fines. Some admendment that has been forgotten about because it's been so abused.

See, we are not upset over this little incident.

We are projecting our outrage over being trampled upon for years. Our only recourse has been showing up in court, and we all know how that goes, "Well I'm sorry sir. I see no reason to question the officer."

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#102

Post by nhaehnle » Thu, May 12, 2016, 4:38 AM UTC

rsp1984 wrote: post #34

gshulegaard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully disagree. An error was identified, communicated, and acted upon as a result of open data. Specifically, it became known that due to inadequate training practices patrol officers were unawares of the change whereas parking enforcement were the only ones trained and therefore were not making the same mistake: > "When the rule changed in 2009 to allow for certain pedestrian ramps to be blocked by parked v…

And I respectfully disagree with you. Money has been taken from citizens by the authorities in an unlawful manner. Money has to be given back. I don't know what more to say about this matter. If I steal 200$ out of your pocket and you find out, my feeling is you would want your money back, not an apology and my heartfelt assurance that it won't happen again...

Your analogy doesn't really work because while there is all this outrage by some people here, I haven't actually seen evidence so far of the NYPD refusing to issue refunds.

The thing is, there doesn't seem to be a cheap and automatic way to (a) accurately filter out all incorrect tickets and (b) track the people down who were wrongfully ticketed. (Yes, analyzing the thousands of different parking spots where tickets were issued for their legality is an expensive process - and there's bound to be a very long tail.) So it seems pretty clear to me that attempting a proactive refund would be an expensive waste of money.

Yes, the police are responsible for doing their job right, and that's what they're doing now. It would sure feel great to punish some scapegoat in hindsight, but this is a classic case where it's difficult to pin the blame - remember, it was a systemic problem where one (small) subgroup of officers failed to be properly trained after a rules change.

People who have been wrongfully ticketed should contest the ticket, it's as simple as that.

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#103

Post by alphapapa » Thu, May 12, 2016, 4:44 AM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #69

msandford wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its not like the tickets were written in bad faith. There's been a huge proliferation of laws in the last ~20 years or so which are categorized as Strict Liability. Taxes have always been like this, but lately a lot of new laws have said "follow this or else" full stop. Since normal everyday citizens are being held to strict liability every day, I see no reason to be so forgiving of officers. I'm not suggesting tha…

The solution is to change the laws not "an eye for an eye.."

What? Lex talionis is punitive. Returning that which was wrongfully taken (i.e. stolen) is restorative and corrective.

However, in this case, returning the money with interest would be somewhat punitive, and that would indeed be appropriate, as it would discourage future carelessness in enforcement and abuse of the citizens of NY.

If you fail to pay all the taxes you owe, you are required to pay penalties. If the government fails to correctly enforce the law and wrongfully fines innocent citizens, why should it not be required to pay penalties?

This is the most basic way to hold government accountable for such carelessness. When a department fails to meet its budget because it did not correctly train its officers in the law, did not properly oversee enforcement, and now has to repay what it wrongfully took, those responsible for the oversight will be replaced with others more competent. As a result, the citizens have a more competent, ethical, accountable, and efficient government.

Wherever did you get the idea that, "Well, as long as you promise not to do it again..." is a sensible solution?

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#104

Post by rahimnathwani » Thu, May 12, 2016, 4:48 AM UTC

gshulegaard wrote: post #13

parennoob wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that they thanked him means exactly zero if they don't give back the money that they got from people who were lawfully parked, but still got erroneously fined by the department for reasons that directly contradict existing law . It is easy to give verbal apologies (especially using hedging words like “....recent, abstruse change in the parking rules.” If the police are so confused by abstruse changes in the…

I respectfully disagree. An error was identified, communicated, and acted upon as a result of open data. Specifically, it became known that due to inadequate training practices patrol officers were unawares of the change whereas parking enforcement were the only ones trained and therefore were not making the same mistake: > "When the rule changed in 2009 to allow for certain pedestrian ramps to be blocked by parked v…

If a lack of training is the reason for these erroneous tickets, perhaps the parking regulations are not simple enough or communicated well enough. If a patrol officer requires training to intepret the regulations, what level of understanding can we expect from a driver?

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#105

Post by tamana » Thu, May 12, 2016, 4:48 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #67

woodman wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm honestly not convinced that's a reasonable expectation. It seems reasonable to me - not being allowed to keep money that isn't yours and that you shouldn't have taken (even by mistake), consider the incentives - writing a huge number of false tickets and then returning the money only to those that are willing to go through the trouble of contesting the ticket.

Eh. Cities issue parking violations all the time when they shouldn't (partially because the rules can be confusing). And, at the same time, many, many people get off with parking violations because they weren't caught. It's hard for me to get excited about a specific group of non-violations because they happened to occur in high incidence spots as uncovered by an examination of public data. I'm not opposed to the cit…

So, it's OK to punish innocent people because guilty people go free? That's your argument?

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#106

Post by tamana » Thu, May 12, 2016, 4:51 AM UTC

holdenc wrote: post #83

Sad to see that a majority of these bad tickets are in poorer neighborhoods. It seems most of Manhattan (below the Bronx) is relatively ok.

Police may know where civilians aren't savvy enough to fight illegal tickets.

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#107

Post by tn13 » Thu, May 12, 2016, 4:52 AM UTC

Whenever I visit NY I dont assume anything is legal. If someone tells me walking barefoot is illegal in NY I would believe it. After all they kill people for sharing smoke and all.

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#108

Post by tamana » Thu, May 12, 2016, 4:55 AM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #77

re wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently it is legal to park there if it's not a marked crosswalk: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/motorist/parking-regulation...

It is state law. A municipality can't override it.

Do you have a state law reference that covers T intersections?

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#109

Post by tamana » Thu, May 12, 2016, 4:57 AM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #59

That's a shame. Parking in front of a handicapped-access ramp is a shitty thing to do even if it is legal.

Why are wheelchairs rolling into the middle of the street? That seems terribly unsafe.

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#110

Post by agjacobson » Thu, May 12, 2016, 4:57 AM UTC

Nice. Something like this happened to me in 1979 in Berkeley. You can infer how angry I got. I was too busy, at the end of grad school, to even contest it.