The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It • Hacker News Board

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#71

Post by themartorana » Thu, May 12, 2016, 2:19 AM UTC

bobbles wrote: post #47

rsp1984 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I respectfully disagree with you. Money has been taken from citizens by the authorities in an unlawful manner. Money has to be given back. I don't know what more to say about this matter. If I steal 200$ out of your pocket and you find out, my feeling is you would want your money back, not an apology and my heartfelt assurance that it won't happen again...

Wow I can't believe all the people disagreeing with you. They unlawfully issued tickets, were made aware that they were unlawful, and don't want to refund the money ??? I must be taking crazy pills for people to think this is ok.

And further, using the excuse "it would cost more to refund than was collected" as the reason to not make right with the people wronged. How much is ticket in NYC? I'm betting it stings, and like here in Philadelphia, the cost of contesting a ticket (in lost wages, navigating a system very much meant to discourage you from contesting a ticket), especially for blue-collar workers, is less affordable than paying the ticket.

This is the NYPD - the most police-state police force in the country, responsible for such hits as Stop-And-Frisk, Eric Garner, and many other human rights abuses.[0]

You think they'd be so lenient with you if you offered them an apology?

Quick reminder about the title of the article - "The NYPD Was Systematically Ticketing Legally Parked Cars for Millions of Dollars a Year." Systematically.

[0] http://gothamist.com/2012/07/25/report_nypd_handling_of_occu...

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#72

Post by esbranson » Thu, May 12, 2016, 2:26 AM UTC

gohrt wrote: post #27

gshulegaard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully disagree. An error was identified, communicated, and acted upon as a result of open data. Specifically, it became known that due to inadequate training practices patrol officers were unawares of the change whereas parking enforcement were the only ones trained and therefore were not making the same mistake: > "When the rule changed in 2009 to allow for certain pedestrian ramps to be blocked by parked v…

Have you memorized the entirety of the law? http://www.amlegal.com/codes/client/new-york-city_ny/ In a city where disagreeing with law enforcement's wrong or illegal activity risks violent reaction or death, it is not solely the citizen's obligation to correct law enforcement's mistakes. Law enforcement tax the citizens to pay professionals to enforce laws. Those professionals have a duty to do their job properly.

> Have you memorized the entirety of the law?

The answer to that question is also the answer to the questions:

* Can you checkout the book of laws out of the library?

* Can you buy the book of laws on Amazon? Can you even afford to buy the book of laws?

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#73

Post by re » Thu, May 12, 2016, 2:29 AM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #66

The T intersection at Virginia Avenue is not legal. The ramps serve an unmarked crosswalk as exists at all intersections in NY state.

Apparently it is legal to park there if it's not a marked crosswalk: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/motorist/parking-regulation...

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#74

Post by developer2 » Thu, May 12, 2016, 2:32 AM UTC

eggy wrote: post #39

parennoob wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I'm not trivializing the value of your work. You have done the general public a great service by finding these erroneous citations. Thank you for that! All I was saying is that there is a strong moral case for people who were wrongly fined in this manner to receive refunds on their fines, and I think the city agency should do that (but almost certainly won't).

I think it is a very positive thing that the OP accomplished. And yes, I think the city should pay back for the wrongly issued parking tickets. The official admits there was an error and defines why it happened. This in itself opens the door for the wrongly ticketed parties to claim a refund, since their is the admission by the city official. Now, who's going to inform those wrongly-ticketed citizens? Certainly not t…

The city certainly won't come forward and dish out the cash voluntarily. It would take a class action to accomplish the task. We'll see in the coming weeks/months if such an action takes form.

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#75

Post by XaspR8d » Thu, May 12, 2016, 2:42 AM UTC

lotharbot wrote: post #64

gshulegaard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully disagree. An error was identified, communicated, and acted upon as a result of open data. Specifically, it became known that due to inadequate training practices patrol officers were unawares of the change whereas parking enforcement were the only ones trained and therefore were not making the same mistake: > "When the rule changed in 2009 to allow for certain pedestrian ramps to be blocked by parked v…

My dad went through something similar, though on a smaller scale. His van had a folding wheelchair lift on the back, which would block the view of the license plate from a distance but not from up close. Based on current law, this was perfectly legal, but some police officers had been trained otherwise in the past and hadn't received updated training like traffic agents had. Eventually, after he successfully conteste…

That's some beautiful self-referentiality. Here's a photo of your handbook, which contains a photo of this exact car. If only he could have made it appear recursive...

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#76

Post by wheelchairuser » Thu, May 12, 2016, 2:47 AM UTC

esbranson wrote: post #48

wheelchairuser wrote: post #44

It seems that there are multiple failures here. 1. Designated approved cutouts should be an easier process to obtain (just try getting a stop sign/crosswalk approved in the city and you'll understand the black hole that is the DOT approval process) 2. Over eager officers issuing tickets. Pedestrian cutouts are there for a real purpose, namely accessibility for people with disabilities and wheelchairs. While it sucks…

> the black hole that is the DOT approval process Once one reads a number of successful and unsuccessful applications and their interpretation and implementation (including the substantive laws/rules, procedural laws/rules, and administrative court precedents), I think the DOT approval process would be rather clear. These processes are usually extremely verbose and pedantic for this reason. Once again I think lack of…

Yes absolutely. However, at the same time if I'm understanding you correctly, if we take it one step further, even assuming we have easy access to court decisions, is the DOT approval process an absolute necessity to reevaluate each X number of cutouts in NYC?

Would this mean that a wheelchair user should plan weeks (months) ahead to google street view every cutout within a 10 block radius of his/her destination and make a request to have it become a DOT approved ramp?

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#77

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Thu, May 12, 2016, 2:51 AM UTC

re wrote: post #73

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #66

The T intersection at Virginia Avenue is not legal. The ramps serve an unmarked crosswalk as exists at all intersections in NY state.

Apparently it is legal to park there if it's not a marked crosswalk: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/motorist/parking-regulation...

It is state law. A municipality can't override it.

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#78

Post by newjersey » Thu, May 12, 2016, 2:57 AM UTC

klean92 wrote: post #37

rsp1984 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I respectfully disagree with you. Money has been taken from citizens by the authorities in an unlawful manner. Money has to be given back. I don't know what more to say about this matter. If I steal 200$ out of your pocket and you find out, my feeling is you would want your money back, not an apology and my heartfelt assurance that it won't happen again...

I am afraid it would cost $2M to try to pay back $1.7M... i think they should first spend their time and $$ in making sure they fix the issues going forward.

Find the money somewhere. Take it out of the police chief's pay for all I care. In fact, I don't think just returning the money is enough. The money should be returned with interest as if it were put into a municipal bond.

The worst part is that every time this happens, the taxpayers are on the hook. I think nothing will change as long as wrong decisions doesn't hurt the decision-makers. I don't know how to implement this but something has to give. When in doubt, officers should err on the side of not writing tickets.

Unrelated but our police officers need stronger protection from the insanity of things like quotas. Make it immensely profitable for an officer to whistleblow situations where they are required to collect $n in fines or write n tickets. Make it a federal law and take that money ($10MM per incidence per officer sounds like a good start, the point is it has to be high enough that there won't be peer pressure for an officer to "get in line") from the department. If they can't pay, too bad. The municipality/county doesn't deserve a police force.

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#79

Post by jessriedel » Thu, May 12, 2016, 3:00 AM UTC

iquantny wrote: post #16

darpa_escapee wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that would mean admitting wrongdoing by their officers and that will never happen. It's also a nice revenue stream and would expose the internal pressures to raise money through ticketing by management and administrators.

They admit wrongdoing in the quote.

Not by the officers.

Re: The NYPD Was Ticketing Legally Parked Cars; Open Data Put an End to It

#80

Post by esbranson » Thu, May 12, 2016, 3:03 AM UTC

wheelchairuser wrote: post #76

esbranson wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the black hole that is the DOT approval process Once one reads a number of successful and unsuccessful applications and their interpretation and implementation (including the substantive laws/rules, procedural laws/rules, and administrative court precedents), I think the DOT approval process would be rather clear. These processes are usually extremely verbose and pedantic for this reason. Once again I think lack of…

Yes absolutely. However, at the same time if I'm understanding you correctly, if we take it one step further, even assuming we have easy access to court decisions, is the DOT approval process an absolute necessity to reevaluate each X number of cutouts in NYC? Would this mean that a wheelchair user should plan weeks (months) ahead to google street view every cutout within a 10 block radius of his/her destination and…

> even assuming we have easy access

Then I would assume this discussion could take place. Here and now. And we could possibly come to a quick and painless basic common-ground agreement. But alas...

I would assume whatever law, rule or judicial decree required them also described their purpose. I would really need the entire set of such descriptions, preferably in neighboring places also, to even begin that discussion.

> Would this mean that a wheelchair user should ...

These are domain-specific policy questions that really can't be answered yet, by me. (By most people, within reason.) A general plan that's been put forward is that, after the law becomes machine-readable and widely accessible, regulatory compliance like this will become increasingly automated.