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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#431
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4 things you mentioned are still false. She made it clear to the FOUNDER that the conduct was unwelcome. Did she tell it to the new employee? Did he repeatedly talk to her in the same manner after being told it was unwelcome? We don't know. I have no problem calling a coworker an "asshole", especially on my own time while taking a beer with him. Without context, that the new employee said "milf" doesn't convey an…

If there wasn't anything wrong with it (in her mind) - it never would have made it to the founder. What happens when you don't fire the guy? Say later on, for whatever reason, SHE has a bone to pick with the company. Now the FOUNDER is the guy who got a harrassment case and "didn't take it seriously". What's the founder's responsibility to protect his company? Don't see how he needs that risk.

She explicitly said that she didn't want him (the boss) to do anything about it. So (in her mind), there was nothing she couldn't handle.

In addition, the event took place outside of work. You are not responsible for the social/sexual relationship of your employees in their private life.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ding ding ding, first cogent, non-hysterical, mature comment on the page! Edit: In the spirit of trying to actually add some worthwhile content in my comment: Harassment sucks, just like not knowing a core skill of one's job, sucks. But demanding perfection in either case is not a reasonable approach. When someone joins, and they don't meet expectations, you have to tell them they didn't meet expectations, show them…

Refusing to tolerate unwelcome, overt, and repeated workplace sexual advances isn't a demand for perfection; it's a demand for a minimal standard of professional conduct. It's right there on the list along with "don't steal, don't try to finagle kickbacks from suppliers, don't physically threaten employees" and so on. There are better places for bizdev and sales people to learn professionalism than in depositions.

Where did you get repeated from? The whole point was that it is a single incident, try fixing it rather than jumping straight to firing. If it becomes repeated, then do the firing.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer either, but I believe that with the exception of defamation --- getting back to "be careful about the words 'for cause'" --- it's not true that you legally owe an accused employee process before terminating them. I think what you were told was false, or that you misunderstood it. I don't think that the victims of a false harassment claim are entitled to damages for their termination. I would welcome…

Your last point is something that I've stumbled across before, and something that it seems many folks (especially engineers) don't fully grasp. As I understand it, even "getting drunk and trash talking a previous employee" in front of the wrong people can be seen as impacting someone's employ-ability, and can land you in some difficult legal situations if you're high up enough. Essentially the only safe thing to say…

> Essentially the only safe thing to say about past employees is nothing.

Yes. Also, even from a non-legal standpoint, such as future interaction with that employee or their contacts, whether that may be social, commercial or legal.

Negative commments can't be unsaid and have a funny way of spreading to unintended parties.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#434
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there wasn't anything wrong with it (in her mind) - it never would have made it to the founder. What happens when you don't fire the guy? Say later on, for whatever reason, SHE has a bone to pick with the company. Now the FOUNDER is the guy who got a harrassment case and "didn't take it seriously". What's the founder's responsibility to protect his company? Don't see how he needs that risk.

She explicitly said that she didn't want him (the boss) to do anything about it. So (in her mind), there was nothing she couldn't handle. In addition, the event took place outside of work. You are not responsible for the social/sexual relationship of your employees in their private life.

She explicitly brought it to the boys, which means it is impacting the work environment. You are responsible for the work environment of your employees, including for addressing known low-leveling issues before they become higher-level issues perhaps involving other employees from the ones involved in the earlier issues.

Which is why you need to consult an employment lawyer and/or your internal HR expert.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the second comment on the thread I've seen invoking "wrongful termination". By all means, get your lawyer to confirm this fact for you, but: assuming you had the bare minimum competent legal assistance in setting up your company and its hiring documents, there is practically no such thing as wrongful termination in the US. In particular: if it is lawful for you to fire someone at all, it is probably no less l…

I didn't take any employment law classes in law school, and never practiced in that area, so take it for what it's worth. The thing that would set my potential liability antenna up is the "just hired" part. I have the vague recollection that there are some cases where courts have awarded damages in situations where someone is offered a job, quits current his job, moves across the country, etc., and then has the offer…

Are you thinking of promissory estoppel? I'm not a lawyer by the way.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#436
post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4 things you mentioned are still false. She made it clear to the FOUNDER that the conduct was unwelcome. Did she tell it to the new employee? Did he repeatedly talk to her in the same manner after being told it was unwelcome? We don't know. I have no problem calling a coworker an "asshole", especially on my own time while taking a beer with him. Without context, that the new employee said "milf" doesn't convey an…

The problem here is that in a workplace you are thinking about whether his seduction technique is abysmal or whether she "likes a little spices". THAT'S THE PROBLEM. By definition, things have gotten dreadfully unprofessional -- especially from your end. "Well, I just figured I'd grope you because you might like it, and it is after 5 pm..."

Of course things were unprofessional, it happened on the weekend on Snapchat. What did you expect?

"Subject: possible sexual intercourse --- Good morning Miss, We met earlier today at Acme corp. I wanted to bring to your attention my desire to meet you in the goal to have intercourse. Please answer before 5pm. You can reach me on my cellphone.

Regards, Mr. X"

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the boss has no responsibility. He might want to intervene if the relationship is influencing their work performance, but that's all.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#437
post #3

Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER . I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." I would bet substantial money that when you lawyer lawyer lawyer they will advise you to do that and document the heck out of it. The calculus is really, really simple: if you don't, then you will with probability approaching one get this incident or a similar incident cited during a threa…

Ah, HN. The place where people complain that companies aren't willing to invest in their employees by (re)training them, and the place where firing is demanded if people make a misstep.

Embezzlement is not equatable here - embezzlement is an objective crime that attracts jail time. Flirting with someone in the office (even if clumsy) is not - there's plenty of office romances out there, and people don't go to jail for them.

Yes, talking to a lawyer and documentation is the right thing to do, but damn, why does every mistake require a scalp?

> As to messaging to the rest of the company, again lawyer lawyer lawyer, but "X made comments of a sexual nature to another employee. As a consequence, we fired him. If you have questions or concerns, speak to me later. Moving on."

No, not moving on. If you do that and then don't then make a sexual harrassment statement part of your hiring process, then you've half-arsed it and are setting yourself up for a repeat - and next time an employee won't come to you, because they don't want to get someone fired over the issue; you've both broken an employee's trust in you and not protected yourself in future. If you're going for the hardline approach, you have to do it completely.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#438
So many comments saying "Fire the guy" without any kind of investigation. And almost universal acceptance that what the woman said is the end of the fact-finding needed to make a decision.

In previous lives as a senior manager and litigation paralegal, I have had to deal with dozens of sexual harassment claims, including the kind that end up at the EEOC and a few that resulted in lawsuits. A good friend and former coworker is a regional HR manager for a Fortune 100 company, and he has seen everything under the sun.

OP, the only reason to do anything is because you're the founder and she brought it to you. You don't have to do anything other than document her conversation with you, but if you decide to stick your nose into it, here's what my thought process would be:

First, even if it's a small startup, OP cannot discuss with the accuser what action he takes with the accused beyond "I'll handle it." While this may baffle many here, it's really none of her business since it involves the accused's relationship with his employer. If he ends up firing the guy, she can put 2 and 2 together, but he cannot provide details of disciplinary action.

Second, he cannot announce to the rest of the employees that he fired the guy for sexual harassment, only something along the lines of "he no longer works here" with maybe some generic fluff about pursuing other opportunities. It's none of their business either.

Third, he needs to talk to the guy. "But she showed him the texts!" someone exclaims. "He called her a MILF!" That's one side of the story. Let's hear the other side before jumping to conclusions. This all happened outside the work context. We don't really know what the hell happened, only third-hand reporting of one of the participants.

Fourth, let the HR person talk to the lawyer, if OP's startup is big enough to have a dedicated HR person. If not, then yes, talk to a lawyer, but make sure they've got some litigation experience. Too many HR lawyers are just overpaid risk managers who don't have any clue of when to fight and when to fold and pay.

Which brings me to my last point: I know it may be unpopular to say, but sometimes women lie and manipulate just as well as men do.

At my senior manager job, I was accused several times of sexual harassment, even though I scrupulously avoided any kind of personal conversation that could lead to any hint of anything sexual with all coworkers, whether direct or indirect reports, peers, or superiors. I never met behind closed doors with women, except my boss, and she always left the blinds open and people felt free to interrupt at any time. And yet, I was accused. None of those accusations withstood scrutiny, but they were a gigantic PITA.

One crazy person even reported me to the FBI, after the EEOC found nothing actionable! (Seriously. The issue was that I was her last resort for altering an unfavorable survey given to her by a customer, and I refused to do so, for sound business reasons.)

Texts can be faked. We don't know enough to know whether the accuser's story is absolutely true and complete, and we certainly don't know her motives.

OP, find yourself someone with serious experience in employment law in your jurisdiction to give you counsel. Pay their fees. Stop trying to do it on the cheap by asking here, since it will do you no good and quite possibly do great harm to follow 90% or more of the advice in this thread.

Edit: added paragraph about doing nothing, and fixed "autocorrect."

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#439
post #424
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad that you exist. From what I get reading these threads on this post, many people with power to fire and hire people know a big glossy nothing about human interaction and psychology. Not even one person gives a thought to whether the guy knows what MILF actually is. Not a single consideration was given to his age, his background, his experience. No chance to make a single mistake. Is it mostly like this in the…

Why would you go to the police?! This is an employment matter, not a criminal matter. And she needs to tell the boss, because she wants to head off retaliation in the workplace. I get tired of hearing these excuses about age, background, I didn't know what the word meant, in my old workplace I got to harass ladies all the time and it was fine. Just act like a professional. I'd even give the guy a pass if he said, "Lo…

> Why would you go to the police?! This is an employment matter, not a criminal matter.

When you call it sexual harassment it's criminal. Otherwise you're basically saying that sexual harassment is not a crime. With regards to going to the boss, I'm perplexed with the role of the boss and the company in an interaction between two adults. Maybe that's a cultural issue, but I think it's the court's job to decide if an action was a sexual harassment or not, not some boss', neither a lawyers (If lawyers were to decide on cases, oh dear god...).

> I get tired of hearing these excuses about age, background, I didn't know what the word meant [...]

Well you can get tired of many things, but at the end of the day people need to be educated somehow, nobody is born a polite, educated, pleasurable person, one becomes so. And remember, we're not talking about a rape here, a stupid interaction instead.

> [...] in my old workplace I got to harass ladies all the time and it was fine.

Oh you're so funny. But the topic is serious: calling a person a sexual offender.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitting on a fellow employee after work hours with a tinder-esque technique is grounds for termination. The female employee has little recourse to stop the advance, and has not approved it. Workplace courtship protocol requires slow, deliberate advancement with explicit ACKs from the receiver.

You have no absolutely idea, who started the tinder-esque technique. For all you know, she could have been calling him a dirty stud, a day earlier. If this true? Would you then fire her? This is why, you need both sides of the story before you can do a "with cause" firing.

OP post suggests he does not question the facts and asks for advice.

You're welcome to suggest to OP that he question his facts. I am not a lawyer, so I don't know what bar he has to cross, but if his facts are true as presented, then he should proceed to termination.

As to your question regarding the female employee. Sure if is she is in fact harassing the male employee, she should be terminated. She could also have fabricated the whole thing. She could be being blackmailed. She might be playing a prank. Someone could have been impersonating the male employee. She might have mental health crisis. There are many scenarios. We weren't asked to consider them.

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