WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#591

Post by dongping » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:25 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #421

gnaritas wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then let me be more clear; you can't get around laws with technology. You have to change the laws. Proposing to make something peer to peer doesn't address the actual problem, the law.

Really? Because Uber and AirBnB seem to be doing a pretty good job of using technology to get around laws. edit: Actually here is a REALLY easy answer. What about Pirating and Torrenting. Do you really believe that this peer to peer technology hasn't massively helped people get around copyright laws?

Or Sci-Hub and Libgen.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#592

Post by ThisIs_MyName » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:31 PM UTC

tomcorrigan wrote: post #454

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might do this and then you get convicted in absentia, Saudi Arabia will send a request for extradiction, your country will say no, done. Except: better not travel to Saudi Arabia or any other country that will extradict. And that is the problem. You can't actually expect people to hire lawyers from 108 different countries to see if their app is legal in each of them just because they're going to distribute it o…

> You can't actually expect people to hire lawyers from 108 different countries You could expect facebook, with their almost infinite resources to so.

No business should play along with their BS or hand over customer data.

I never thought I'd say this, but: Good on Facebook for not complying.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#593

Post by neves » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:12 PM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #259

neves wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite answer to justice requests from American companies (Google, Facebook etc) is that their servers are in other country so they don't have to obey Brazilian laws. BTW, it is easy prove wrong issuing a "ping" and knowing the speed of light.

If you had a server set up in Brazil that did something perfectly legal in Brazil, but flaunted US law, would you want to be beholden to US law? It's not a flip answer. I operate a business on the App Store in part knowing that I'm bound by US law, not the laws of random countries. My app is available in Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Iraq, and so on. They are more than welcome to block the traffic from our servers based on…

If you sell your services to American individuals and companies, paying American taxes for it, announce in USA, target American market -- like they all do in Brazil -- then the answer is yes.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#594

Post by bikamonki » Tue, May 03, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

paavokoya wrote: post #438

bikamonki wrote: post #431

Do we need more proof? The Internet is broken. A few months back there were protests against government in my country (also in South America). That day I witnessed how Twitter images were selectively blocked. (I remember reporting it here on HN). What was really scary is how they could select the pictures/videos to block, almost in realtime. Here we have about 5 ISPs serving 95% of the market (counting both mobile an…

Apps exist that route around censorship. People need to inform themselves. We are in an era where encryption and self-sustenance are deemed scary and suspicious. If all of these 100m users were on FireChat, this headline wouldn't exist.

Not sure, we tried Firechat among friends and family on the last aftermath of an earthquake and some had problems installing or activating it. Also, it just drains the battery. However, I agree with you, the technology to circumvent centralized and censored communications is already there, it just needs adoption and improvement. But we need to think bigger, not only chats, we need a free Internet.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#595

Post by grecy » Tue, May 03, 2016, 6:33 PM UTC

aianus wrote: post #253

grecy wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it's a much better gauge of how much money each person has You've got to be kidding me. The US has a massive GDP per capita but there are 30 million people struggling to survive without even healthcare. GDP per capita tells you nothing about how much each person has, it just tells you how much there is and how many people. How's it's split among them is another story.

> The US has a massive GDP per capita but there are 30 million people struggling to survive without even healthcare. Relatively few people personally need healthcare at any given time. In comparison to, say, clean water, food, shelter, education, and physical security, which actual third world countries seem to still have serious problems with.

> which actual third world countries seem to still have serious problems with.

If you're comparing the US to actual third world countries, you've already lost.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#596

Post by x0054 » Tue, May 03, 2016, 8:01 PM UTC

SapphireSun wrote: post #424

girvo wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all respect, how is that "very very close" to a personal attack? Sure, they're passionate, and frankly I disagree with other sides of what they've said in their comment, but it's not a personal attack in the slightest: it's a strongly worded indictment of the parent comment and the opinions expressed therein. There's nothing wrong with that, that's exactly how arguing works, at least in my opinion :)

It's not exactly one, but I think the tone is excessively aggressive. The words maybe not right on the money, but someone not carefully parsing them might easily find themselves feeling that way. Riding right on the edge isn't the greatest idea when you'd like people to interpret your words charitably. You can be civil while disagreeing strongly. For instance, instead of calling something "idiotic" you could say "I d…

Since we are talking about me, I might comment as well. Even the smartest and best people can, from time to time, have idiotic ideas, I sure had a few in my time :) To say that someone has an idiotic idea isn't the same as to call them an idiot. The original comment was a well presented, though flawed, argument, clearly NOT a work of an idiot. Further, for me to say "I am glad you are in the minority..." simply indicates that I disagree vehemently with the position the original commenter is taking and I am very happy that his position is not very popular, as that means that maybe things in Brazil will change for the better as the result of this.

I also find it ironic that in a post about censorship someone pulled out the HN censorship guidelines. I totally understand the context is completely different, but it's funny.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#597

Post by mhays » Tue, May 03, 2016, 8:23 PM UTC

c22 wrote: post #442

Retra wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In fact, it's kind of insensitive for foreigners to suggest that a judge of a sovereign nation must consider US law in his rulings. It's just as insensitive for a judge of a foreign nation to suggest that all foreigners must consider his rulings when making decisions under their own sovereign laws.

Really it's just absurd that we have borders. Ergo absurd situations arise.

Would you rather no borders exist, and a Brazilian judge ruling against WhatsApp taking out service worldwide, instead?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#598

Post by necessity » Tue, May 03, 2016, 8:28 PM UTC

Mikushi wrote: post #534

necessity wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dystopian only in the mind of a sci-fi fan. In practice it's a free communication service that helped millions to connect. No one forced people to use WhatsApp like something from 1984, people chose it from the various alternatives. In fact, a lot of people prefer Telegram, and a lot use neither, preferring good old cellphone conversations. Oh wait, isn't that a closed protocol that dominates all offline communicatio…

You are under the impression that people in 1984 are forced into that position. These situations don't happen by force, it's gradual change over time, like the frog you slowly boil. What is dystopian is the amount of control corporations have on our day to day lives, as well as the freedom to study and follow our every moves and thoughts and do so for profit or other ends. That is dystopian, not the technology itself…

The whole point is being forced to do it or not. I do not use Facebook, any Google service or anything that could track me, because I care. There's no control here, I'm not being forced to use those services and even if I were to use them - like most people who do not care for their privacy - it's just information being voluntarily shared. It makes no difference for them, and they can stop using those services/use an alternative any time they want.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#599

Post by CamperBob2 » Tue, May 03, 2016, 8:36 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #480

CamperBob2 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no such thing as a country whose laws can't be changed. Only countries where the people don't care enough to do what's necessary to change them.

Oh, now I understand North Korea's problems!

Actually, thinking about it, North Koreans can at least argue that China will intercede in their political and economic affairs to the extent necessary to keep them subjugated. So I'll give you that.

But what's Brazil's excuse?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#600

Post by mirimir » Tue, May 03, 2016, 11:22 PM UTC

ricksplat wrote: post #560

mirimir wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's the Internet, isn't it? I mean this: https://anarplex.net/hosted/files/declarationseparation.html

Interesting. I think it boils down to a freeman argument though - you're basically issuing refutation of your implicit social contract. While the sentiment therein is laudable it is somewhat premature. Though one has a great deal of independence in the cyber realm one is can still run afoul of limitations of the real world and her laws (as demonstrated today in Brazil). I think cyberspace currently is best categorize…

One can always be subjugated. By robbers. By terrorists. By ISPs. By governments. By whatever. So one does what one can to be left alone. And helps others following the path.

But in meatspace, one blends in, doesn't attract attention. As in Vinge's True Names. Ultimately, authoritarian states may wither. Or not. But in the meantime, one can manage, under occupation.