WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#431

Post by bikamonki » Tue, May 03, 2016, 3:50 AM UTC

Do we need more proof? The Internet is broken. A few months back there were protests against government in my country (also in South America). That day I witnessed how Twitter images were selectively blocked. (I remember reporting it here on HN). What was really scary is how they could select the pictures/videos to block, almost in realtime. Here we have about 5 ISPs serving 95% of the market (counting both mobile and landline) and all hook to a couple of bigger pipes to move ALL Internet traffic in/out of the country.

Try as I might but can't understand why we do not break free from centralized communications, given that we already have both the hardware and software technology to do so.

I like an old saying: when banging your head against a stonewall, you will always break the head and never the wall. So, what do we gain from discusing politics? What do we gain with laws written on paper but bent for the best bidder? Let's be pragmatic, in particular on a site like HN. We shouldn't be talking about the law, whether it is right or wrong, we should be discusing how many nodes do we need on a mesh network to solve communications for a city like Sao Paulo. Is the tech there yet? Can it get there? Who's advancing on these subjects? How can we help? (like really help not writting useless letters to congressmen)

Don't bang your head on the stonewall...

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#432

Post by programmarchy » Tue, May 03, 2016, 3:51 AM UTC

soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

> But Whatsapp simply ignored brazilian justice system as if it was above the law.

Ignoring and evading broken justice systems and immoral laws is exactly what people who believe in freedom should do, whether it's in Brazil, the US, or any other fucked up political system.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#433

Post by zmmmmm » Tue, May 03, 2016, 3:56 AM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #402

coldcode wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter it's not a Brazilian company, there are no servers in Brazil, only the users exist in Brazil. They could mandate Mark Zuckerberg run around naked and it would make no difference. Maybe Brazil should create a great wall of Brazil and cut itself off of the internet. Then it could enact whatever laws it wants to affect companies in other countries.

Facebook has at least one company in Brazil, and they are providing a service in Brazil that this judge ordered to interrupt. It's perfectly reasonable to forbid access to Brazil for some service that does not follow a Brazilian law. This is bad because of the specific terms of this law, not because of some broad issue.

> providing a service in Brazil

I don't know if they have servers in brazil, but if they don't then it seems quite unreasonable to say that they are "providing a service in Brazil". If you run a bookstore in the US and a German comes and buys Nazi material, are you running a store in Germany? If Brazilians are effectively leaving their country to go get stuff from US servers then it's up to the Brazilian government to make a law to stop them, if it doesn't like that. Saying that connecting to the internet is "providing service" to every country in the world is a way to simply break the entire internet.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#434

Post by alias240 » Tue, May 03, 2016, 3:58 AM UTC

rb2k_ wrote: post #296

shostack wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if they record the necessary analytics data from mining the text, and then delete the actual text. Depending on what data you're trying to mine, you may be able to get what you need on transmission, and then dump the source data in favor of the output of the analytics event.

The chats are end-to-end encrypted, so there is no plain text anyone could "mine"

Unless they are covertly decrypting them on the fly using a master key.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#435

Post by devishard » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:00 AM UTC

envy2 wrote: post #158

soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

> First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe) process it and serve it on the US company. This is one of the reasons why MLAT reform, such as the proposed UK-US agreement[1], is so important because it would allow US companies to directly respond to foreign law enforcement requests.

This is all WhatsApp's and the US's problem, not Brazil's. In fact, it's kind of insensitive for foreigners to suggest that a judge of a sovereign nation must consider US law in his rulings. If anything, I think this would justify ruling against WhatsApp more harshly, as it sends the message to the US that policies which don't respect the sovereignty of Brazil will hurt US economic interests in Brazil.

That said:

> Second, apparently, the data does not exist. WhatsApp publicly stated, including in testimony before the Brazilian Congressional Committee on Cyber Crimes[2], that it does not and has not retained any message content once messages are delivered, even before the recent full roll-out of E2E. Based on these statements, it would seem that WhatsApp is indeed unable to comply with the court's request, regardless of any jurisdictional arguments.

If this is true, that's a solid argument and stands on its own.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#436

Post by leonatan » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:02 AM UTC

habosa wrote: post #419

lerpa wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad laws are bad laws, it's idiotic to support them.

If you think harder you will realize that is false. The rule of law itself has value, and we can only live in a lawful society if we respect all laws and change them via established processes. Otherwise someone may decide that your favorite law is "idiotic" and you will have no recourse.

Civil disobedience is a very "established process".

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#437

Post by msh » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:03 AM UTC

soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

So you think the great firewall of China is also a good thing?

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#438

Post by paavokoya » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:03 AM UTC

bikamonki wrote: post #431

Do we need more proof? The Internet is broken. A few months back there were protests against government in my country (also in South America). That day I witnessed how Twitter images were selectively blocked. (I remember reporting it here on HN). What was really scary is how they could select the pictures/videos to block, almost in realtime. Here we have about 5 ISPs serving 95% of the market (counting both mobile an…

Apps exist that route around censorship. People need to inform themselves. We are in an era where encryption and self-sustenance are deemed scary and suspicious.

If all of these 100m users were on FireChat, this headline wouldn't exist.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#439

Post by tomjen3 » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:09 AM UTC

soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

It is still punishing millions of innocent users and of my executives were being arrested for technicalities I wouldn't have anybody in the country either. It is a stupid law, a retard of a judge who should have applied proportional harm based on how many innocents this hurts.

At 100 million, somebody will likely due because they couldn't get a ride and end up with a stranger.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#440

Post by Retra » Tue, May 03, 2016, 4:09 AM UTC

devishard wrote: post #435

envy2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a few problems with this analysis. First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe)…

> First, WhatsApp is a US company and has no presence in Brazil. Under many readings of US law (specifically, ECPA), US companies are in fact prohibited from complying with requests from foreign law enforcement for content, except in emergencies. Instead, foreign law enforcement must make a request for assistance to the US DoJ, which will then (eventually, and maybe) process it and serve it on the US company. This is…

>In fact, it's kind of insensitive for foreigners to suggest that a judge of a sovereign nation must consider US law in his rulings.

It's just as insensitive for a judge of a foreign nation to suggest that all foreigners must consider his rulings when making decisions under their own sovereign laws.