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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand; even in the case of "power imbalance" relationships, I'm still asking the question: What is the evidence these are primarily negative relationships for the participants? When you read about these, the authors almost exclusively present it as the person in the dominant position somehow taking advantage of the other. Are you equal, though, in your condemnation of e.g. the flirty student successfully seduc…

Years ago, I had intense debates with my mother about the Monica Lewinsky case. I made essentially the same point you're making here: that focusing on the power imbalance stripped Lewinsky of her agency as an adult woman. My mother's arguments that Bill Clinton had too much relative power (and was too much older) for the relationship to be reasonable didn't really sink in for me at the time. As I've learned more abou…

It is ridiculous for outsiders to stick their noses into consensual relationships engaged in by adults. If I were Lewinsky or any other woman you might theoretically be addressing, I'd be highly annoyed at your patronizing "Oh honey, I know you wanted to but he should have saved you from yourself" kind of attitude.

Clinton morally erred by breaking his vows to his wife, but if we set that aside, he did not do anything wrong by the simple act of having sex with Lewinsky. Let's assume, though, that the power differential argument _is_ valid- Who _could_ he engage in a relationship with, being President? Not politically powerful women, because his power is always going to be greater. Maybe other world leaders only? Only world leaders in the G8? He has no peers.

The student/professor example has a few _practical_ concerns regarding why you might want to avoid that situation and you've laid those out, and I agree. But ethically there would be no cause for objection unless actual grade massaging was occurring. That's not a given. In other words, appearance of impropriety is a practical objection, not an ethical objection. I'll zing any professor for taking advantage, express or implied, of one of her students but I will not automatically assume something shady is happening without evidence.

Anecdotes are not data. If we can show that the majority of these relationships are negative, that's a stronger case, but still not worth blanket-ruling the exceptions out of existence.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#392
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My response was fully appropriate for and corresponding to the content of the OP -- fully. I realize you are certain of this, but I'm equally certain that a vast majority of those who would write the original post would consider your suggestions to be "part of the problem". Perhaps they are wrong, but from their viewpoint your response is indistinguishable from parody. And I said "honey" with "100% affection, caring,…

> Then assume that you kept addressing him as "boy" while proclaiming your sympathy for the "plight of the Negro condition". Although possibly well-intentioned, this is how your response strikes others. I grew up in the Old South: Addressing a US Black, "boy" is always an insult. Since growing up, I've seen a lot of the US: Addressing a woman in distress, e.g., "constant nightmares", affectionately, "honey" is quite…

> Addressing a woman in distress, e.g., "constant nightmares", affectionately, "honey" is quite appropriate with nothing wrong at all.

No. No it is not. Jesus christ. You do not get to call a woman you don't know "honey", "darling", "sweetie", "sweetie pie", "sweetheart", "sugar", "baby", "doll", "angel", etc. If you do know her, you better either be her father or mother, or significant other. I don't care if you're from the South. I'm from the South. Fucking stop it.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#393
post #297
post #92

I never knew BuzzFeed wrote exclusive longform (and interesting) content. Thanks for mentioning it.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11519919 and marked it off-topic. Btw this comes up every time a substantive Buzzfeed article appears on HN.

Damn, sorry for the trouble :(

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#394

I've been a prof: Academics is awash in non-objective pushing and shoving that, yes, affects careers. In academics, even high end universities, a lot of the nasty behavior of middle school is still alive and well. Added to that is grown up politics, professional jealousy, professional competition with sabotage, and, also, no doubt, sexual harassment as in the OP. I can't speak first hand about sexual harassment becau…

[deleted]

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#395

I've been a prof: Academics is awash in non-objective pushing and shoving that, yes, affects careers. In academics, even high end universities, a lot of the nasty behavior of middle school is still alive and well. Added to that is grown up politics, professional jealousy, professional competition with sabotage, and, also, no doubt, sexual harassment as in the OP. I can't speak first hand about sexual harassment becau…

Bleating.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then assume that you kept addressing him as "boy" while proclaiming your sympathy for the "plight of the Negro condition". Although possibly well-intentioned, this is how your response strikes others. I grew up in the Old South: Addressing a US Black, "boy" is always an insult. Since growing up, I've seen a lot of the US: Addressing a woman in distress, e.g., "constant nightmares", affectionately, "honey" is quite…

> Addressing a woman in distress, e.g., "constant nightmares", affectionately, "honey" is quite appropriate with nothing wrong at all. No. No it is not. Jesus christ. You do not get to call a woman you don't know "honey", "darling", "sweetie", "sweetie pie", "sweetheart", "sugar", "baby", "doll", "angel", etc. If you do know her, you better either be her father or mother, or significant other. I don't care if you're…

> call a woman you don't know

Name a woman I called "honey". You can't, because there isn't one.

Moreover, since I am anonymous at HN, no human female can, from anything I wrote, name anyone who called her "honey".

Instead, there is full anonymity. How many times have explained this point here. Do you have it now?

You are angry with no reason to be angry.

You are straining to find something wrong where there isn't anything. There's plenty that's wrong in this world without straining to find things that are not wrong and call them wrong.

Getting so angry and concerned about nothing significant is a serious symptom of anxiety disease, neurotic behavior, hysteria, paranoia, etc. (David Shapiro, Neurotic Styles, ISBN 0-465-09502-X, Leon Salzman, Treatment of the Obsessive Personality, ISBN 0-87668-881-4). Get some professional help.

For your reaction, in plain language, you have been sold one huge pile of rotten garbage. A lot of that garbage is in the dump called politically correct.

Apparently some people are making a living from pushing politically correctness. Where might we find examples? Sure, the newsies. And, why them? Because they are in the ad business and need eyeballs, and their main way to get eyeballs is to grab people by the heart, the gut, and below the belt, especially with claims of things wrong, evil, danger, scandal. So, scare people. So, go back to the French Revolution where any recognition of any difference was seen as a threat of tyranny (E. Fromm, The Art of Loving). So, some newsie starts with some claims of something wrong, and other newsies jump on. They form a mob. Then all the newsies in the mob keep running their stories about the claim, getting ad revenue, with all the other similar stories by the mob providing credibility (confirmation bias). It's a manipulation, a scam. It's dishonest and disgusting. Political correctness is a bottomless pit of such scary stories, all based on absolutely nothing.

Part of that garbage is some outrageous fear that there is something just terribly wrong saying anything that mentions gender, especially anything that mentions that in some ways there are some differences among the sexes.

So, part of the idea is to eradicate any recognition of any differences among the sexes and to strain to pretend that each sex is in all respects identical to every other sex. All of this totally ignores that only women can have children, only women have ovaries, and only men have testicles. Amazing.

That politically correct garbage is doing huge amounts of harm to the US. Some of the harm is the high divorce rate, in some cases, higher suicide rates, and, in total, a birth rate so low that the US citizens of Western European descent are going extinct -- literally. Family formation has been shot in the gut. The harm is so great it looks like a result of deliberate sabotage from some enemies of the US.

Some more harm? Sure, from the OP, "constant nightmares".

There's more than one sex. That's a simple fact we are supposed to understand before we are even three years old. Laws, politically correct norms, and disgusting newsie manipulations won't change that. Insisting that there is only one sex will lead only to disaster.

Yup, now the big politically correct screaming is that we must have just one variety of public restrooms, that is, everyone must share the same restrooms. So, now my four year old daughter has to share a restroom with some sick-o old man. That's sabotage of our country.

You've been sold a huge pile of reeking garbage. Better send it back to wherever you got it. Then for a cognitive approach, use your rationalism to filter out garbage like you were sold and bought. Then get some professional help and calm down.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#397
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Looking at the kind of things people say in online games, almost every negative comment falls under sexual harassment. Homophobic comments, "you suck", comments about genitalia, neck beards, a comment about the sexual nature for which the person was born from... About the only type of harassment that do not qualify under sexual harassment is those that insult intelligence, ability to perform a task, and…

>almost every negative comment falls under sexual harassment // This seems like a confusion between using swear/curse words and things being sexual. People swearing often say words that are also used to describe sexual acts by the use is akin to using homophones. "You wanker!" isn't sexual, for example, unless there's particular context to make it that way.

I understand where you’re coming from, but the same argument was, and is, made when defending the usage of the word “Gay” as a general disparaging adjective. In a way, the people making that argument, and you when making yours, are right in that many or perhaps most people don’t mean anything sexual in using the phrase¹. But this does not mean that it should therefore be OK to call something “Gay” or labeling a person a “Wanker”. Using those words in a disparaging fashion does lead to a normalization and tacit approval of homophobic and sex-shaming attitudes, respectively.

① I once saw someone trying to establish the term and spelling “Ghey” as a non-sexually associated disparaging word.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#398
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>almost every negative comment falls under sexual harassment // This seems like a confusion between using swear/curse words and things being sexual. People swearing often say words that are also used to describe sexual acts by the use is akin to using homophones. "You wanker!" isn't sexual, for example, unless there's particular context to make it that way.

I understand where you’re coming from, but the same argument was, and is, made when defending the usage of the word “Gay” as a general disparaging adjective. In a way, the people making that argument, and you when making yours, are right in that many or perhaps most people don’t mean anything sexual in using the phrase¹. But this does not mean that it should therefore be OK to call something “Gay” or labeling a perso…

At the same time, language changes all the time. It didn't mean the same thing when my kids called something "radical" as in my day. Modern culture has a way of burning up useful words, when they become PC unacceptable. Remember when "idiot", "moron" and "retarded" were technical terms with no emotional baggage? No? You were born too late for that.

Its probably different when words that used to be disparaging become less so (wanker, gay). Because there remain a generation that are still offended by them, we should probably lighten up on them especially in mixed company.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#399
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kind of men that have gotten away with it for years and even then kept their jobs (unlike the women they targetted)?

Snark aside, I just wonder why I don't know any men like that in my personal life. The problem seems quite widespread after all.

You almost certainly do know men like that in your personal life. They're just not creeping on you. Abusers and harassers are typically VERY charming to folks they're not abusing, which is why women tend not to speak up - because we know from plenty of bitter personal and secondhand experience that the response is going to be, "But he's such a great guy! You must have just misunderstood what was happening."

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not call it a "weird disconnect". It's just very awkward to give a flat-out "No" when asked out, even when the two people are not coworkers. When it comes to asking someone out, there are three answers: Yes; Yes in principle, but I'm not available then, how about next Tuesday?; all other answers are No. She was probably frustrated that you weren't picking up on this, and probably did feel uncomfortable that s…

Honestly everybody would win if guys and girls told the other person "I am flattered, but I am not available." It may hurt a little in the moment (because ego), but short/mid/long run you always thank them for saving you time.

Except for women, the worst case when we say "no" isn't "someone gets his feelings hurt and goes away"; it's something like this: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/04/25/connect...

or this: http://mic.com/articles/133535/yet-another-woman-has-been-ki...

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