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Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

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Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#161

Post by hartpuff »

creshal wrote: post #80
hartpuff wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again. Because first they'll come for the contractless? Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis?

> Because first they'll come for the contractless? No, but census data were extremely useful in organizing the holocaust. > Why is it some people are incapable of discussing Germany without tiresomely invoking the Nazis? Because in these cases that's how the political discussion in Germany in the 1980s/2000s went when the above-mentioned measures were discussed. It's simply the benchmark our governments are judged by…

This is not about collecting census data, is it?

So, sticking to what it is about, if you think your invoking of the Nazis and the Holocaust was even remotely appropriate in this thread, explain how banning anonymous SIM cards aids a future genocide.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#162

Post by hartpuff »

throwanem wrote: post #159
hartpuff wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to Native Americans was "kind of a big deal" too. So was slavery. Should people therefore bring them up every time there's a completely unrelated discussion about the USA?

Completely unrelated? A German government legislates the use of technology to make identifying and tracking its citizens easier, and you can't see how people draw the comparison? As for your invidious attempt to distract from said comparison by slinging mud, I'll just point out that you're severely underplaying your hand here - a goodly fraction of what went into Hitlerism, not least the theory and practice of eugeni…

> and you can't see how people draw the comparison?

Between collecting data on SIM card ownership and the Holocaust? No, I can't see how any level-headed person can draw such a comparison.

> As for your invidious attempt to distract from said comparison by slinging mud

WTH are you talking about?

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#163

Post by blah5432 »

jjgreen wrote: post #149
blah5432 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resistance to ID is just an americanism. There are no practical negative consecuences and a lot of good ones. Identity is a right that government must warrant, not something dirty that should be buried.

So why you create temporary accounts to comment?

Because this lovely customer I'm working in MITMs the HTTPS. You know, it's so cool to read gmail on the phone.

BTW, shame on Chrome for allowing it without a warning :-/ Firefox totally refused to connect.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#164

Post by fab13n »

pmarreck wrote: post #104
fab13n wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. The phone being instrumental in a first crime, it'll be easy to get a wire warrant and listen for the subsequent crimes you'll commit by using it. Most criminals aren't masterminds (and the few who are, are genrelly designed with other names, such as "politicians"); if you make it difficul…

> But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. This is the same circular non-logic that permits officers to arrest you merely for resisting arrest. The state decides to make wearing blue illegal; I continue to because I am a strong "blue believer"; thus, merely by insisting on wearing blue, I MUST hang with other law-non-abiders (aka…

I'm not arguing that it's a very dangerous slope for public liberties. I believe the checks and balances against executive branches are increasingly broken in most western democracies, and that robust online privacy pushes in the very desirable direction of re-establishing a bit of that balance. I'm really concerned that most citizens don't see this as a major voting issue.

However, this was neither the OP's point, nor what I was answering too. He described the measure as ineffective, because most criminals would be able and willing to acquire an illegal SIM before using a phone. I believe this to be false and I explained why. Being dangerous for liberties is not the same as being effective from police forces' PoV; actually, these two qualities are negatively correlated most of the time.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#165

Post by hartpuff »

creshal wrote: post #157
hartpuff wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to Native Americans was "kind of a big deal" too. So was slavery. Should people therefore bring them up every time there's a completely unrelated discussion about the USA?

In a "completely unrelated" discussion? No. But bringing up past German government failures in a discussion about a German government tightening up blanket surveillance of all their citizens is not "completely unrelated".

Let's hear it, then, what's the relationship between banning anonymous SIM cards and genocide.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#166

Post by blah5432 »

creshal wrote: post #124
blah5432 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resistance to ID is just an americanism. There are no practical negative consecuences and a lot of good ones. Identity is a right that government must warrant, not something dirty that should be buried.

> Resistance to ID is just an americanism. I literally just explained how it's not. > There are no practical negative consecuences Assuming an ideal, benevolent government. (Presumably residing on an infinite frictionless plane, feasting on spherical cows.)

You need to assume nothing. Your government is spying on everybody without an ID. Your explanation just doesn't qualify, sorry.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#167

Post by toomanybeersies »

ghshephard wrote: post #60
arviewer wrote: post #39

And again, a new measure that will affect everybody except criminals, who pay a drug addict to register hundreds of these cards.

Well, only the criminals that put some effort. Somewhat effective at tracking down the lazy criminals. Also, in places like Singapore, you can only own 5 Data SIMs before they start asking tougher questions. I wasn't aware there were countries that you could purchase data SIMs in without having to hand over passport/government ID, I'd just assumed that was a ubiquitous practice.

In New Zealand, >90% of phones are pre-paid and anonymous (unless you opt to fill in your personal details online).

It's strange to think that other countries have restrictions on buying SIM cards, I can literally go to the corner store and get one for $20, with $20 credit on it.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#168

Post by toomanybeersies »

mamon wrote: post #103
nroets wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries, law enforcement can get a list of devices (IMEI numbers) the sim was used in. Then ask of a list of sims used in that device and a list calls and texts made to / from any of those sims. So, one slip up and the sim will have a link to you.

It is also possible to buy the whole package: SIM card + a disposable 50$ worth dumbphone. Which IMEI will be equaly untraceable.

I've seen dumbphones for sale for $10, including a SIM with $20 credit. Handy for emergencies and for dodgy people.

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#169

Post by IvyMike »

swimfar wrote: post #130

In a tangentially related topic, here's an interesting animation of location tracking of a German politician based on his phone records: http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention Malte Spitz sued to have his telephone provider hand over six months of his phone data. He gave it to Zeit Online who used it to create this record of where he had been. It's probably not too surprising to many people any mor…

If you've got an Android phone and location history is on, take a look at your own: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline

Re: Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

#170

Post by fab13n »

saiya-jin wrote: post #108
fab13n wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. The phone being instrumental in a first crime, it'll be easy to get a wire warrant and listen for the subsequent crimes you'll commit by using it. Most criminals aren't masterminds (and the few who are, are genrelly designed with other names, such as "politicians"); if you make it difficul…

You sir have apparently no idea how easy is to obtain guns in european underworld, and I don't mean Ukraine or Albania. Want to buy AK-47 with ammo in Paris? Just go to shady suburbs, if you know where to go/right people it's piece of cake for few hundred euros (not living there myself, but I have a colleague who comes from there and this is his consistent description).

Yet empirically, only a tiny, tiny fraction of crimes committed in France are committed with AK-47s.

Most likely, non-exclusive explanations:

* you underestimate the difficulty of acquiring such a weapon without being caught nor robbed;

* you overestimate the abilities of most criminals.

Incidentally, I happen to have spent about half of my life in Paris and its suburbs. I believe it gives me at least as much legitimacy as having watched a couple of sensationalist reports on French TV stations. Which, moreover, I have also watched :-)

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