For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare • Hacker News Board

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#311

Post by bittercynic » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 6:43 PM UTC

backpocket wrote: post #301

labster wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already know. If you have a hiring choice between a theoretically equal woman and an equal man, you'll probably want to select the man because you'd feel safe to interact with him socially. You won't because it's Wrong, but what about all of the little decisions you don'…

So in our pursuit of equality, men are now between a rock and a hard place: treat women equally, but not too equally; treat them differently, but not too differently - or you will be discriminating. "Please discriminate: just very, very carefully and very, very skillfully."

In my experience (as a man) all you have to do is treat people with respect and you'll be fine.

There are occasionally times when I enter a room where a woman was alone and I can see that my mere presence is making her very uncomfortable and she feels that she can't say/do anything. At those times I quickly excuse myself with a quick "Hello, goodbye" or something.

This really doesn't seem like such a tricky issue if you're just respectful and conscious of the discomfort of others.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#312

Post by wfo » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 6:45 PM UTC

woodman wrote: post #202

wfo wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, fortunately you are incorrect here. While certain kinds of sexual harassment are not criminal, groping is certainly a crime. I'm pretty sure threatening to destroy someone's career to force sex is a crime. If you succeed, it's rape which is quite a serious crime. Even if you just file a report, it's important to establish a pattern of abuse for when the person inevitably crosses the line and goes to court.…

Describing an assault as sexual harassment is ridiculous. That is like describing a murder as impolite driving... that resulted in the flattening of a person who you happened to want dead. We are talking about different things here, and conflating them isn't going to help anybody.

It's okay for words to have wide and general meaning. Assault can mean flicking someone with your middle finger. It can mean saying something threatening. Sexual assault is a kind of assault. Barfights and brutally beating someone all count.

Similarly with sexual harassment. It doesn't mean exactly what you have in your head at this particular moment and nothing else no matter what anyone else says. Look it up if you care to and you'll find its definition is quite broad, especially the way it's used in general conversation. Nobody is suggesting locking people up in jail for saying bad words -- it's an absurd strawman, though it's quite an effective way to derail the conversation and avoid having a real discussion.

The article is about the climate of abuse and sexual harassment of women in astrophysics departments. Groping, specific comments, threats, general comments. Everything from flirtation to repeated unwanted advances to actual assault. That is what we are discussing, so when someone says women should go to the police to report the crimes described in the article you need to assume they are talking about the crimes described in the article.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#313

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 6:45 PM UTC

fweespee_ch wrote: post #294

stcredzero wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide examples of this happening on the scale you state? I find it telling that you were assuming I was talking about female minorities. Reread.

Why don't you provide examples rather than insisting I read your intentions in vague statements? I was discussing the context of my comment, not the world in general. So once again: Please provide examples where homogeneity on both the gender and race axis occurs so frequently this could be considered a reasonable event? And the boss is attracted to that gender? EDIT: > There are a bunch of places that hire out of wh…

Please provide examples where homogeneity on both the gender and race axis occurs so frequently this could be considered a reasonable event?

I never made such a claim. I'm not sure what you're going on about, as I essentially agreed with you a few comments ago. Reread. Check yourself, specifically the conclusions you are jumping to.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#314

Post by NoGravitas » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 6:46 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #142

stcredzero wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" There's some kind of weird disconnect in our society here. I've been in the position where I've asked a colleague out to a movie, but she gave a plausible sounding excuse each time. I stopped asking when she finally definitely said "no," but she did so with language that made me feel like she thought me a rapist. No means no, but white lies s…

If she really wanted to see the movie with you, but she actually had to take her dog to the dentist, she would have counter-offered a time and date. She was trying to brush you off, hoping you'd take the hint, without appearing confrontational. It obviously didn't work. You continued with the unwanted advances, and it made her uncomfortable.

Or maybe even not a particular time and date, but "maybe sometime next week?" or "I'd love to, but I'll have to take a rain check". Those are both "yes in principle"; anything less than those is "no".

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#315

Post by NoGravitas » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 6:49 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #254

ghostcat wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a straight-up "no" can turn it into an outright confrontation, which can be pretty dangerous if the guy isn't the type that will take "no" for an answer. Once I gave a guy a simple-but-polite "no" in college, and he responded with harassing emails/repeated phone calls/stalking/etc for months. Once during an internship, a superior cornered me in my office after-hours, blocking my exit and declaring his love for…

Using a straight-up "no" can turn it into an outright confrontation, which can be pretty dangerous if the guy isn't the type that will take "no" for an answer. On what basis should men be treated by-default as if they are, "the type that won't take no for an answer?" Wouldn't it be parsimonious to try the "no" and see what happens, in that case? How about we're all treated as emotionally secure, professional, rationa…

> On what basis should men be treated by-default as if they are, "the type that won't take no for an answer?" Wouldn't it be parsimonious to try the "no" and see what happens, in that case?

It would be parsimonious, and on average, it would work out. The problem is that the cost of being mistaken is high enough that it's worth working to avoid the worst-case result rather than optimize for average-case results. Does that make sense?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#316

Post by collyw » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 6:50 PM UTC

clevernickname wrote: post #256

dagw wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or are there really nice bosses who are just complete assholes to women? My friend's ex-boss was like that. All the guys at the company thought he was the best boss ever and all the women hated him with a passion.

The opposite absolutely exists. I've had female bosses, professors, etc. that all the women loved and admired, while all the men agreed she was out to get them.

The female boss in one place I worked seem to hate all the women who worked under her, but generally loved the guys.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#317

Post by drunken-serval » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 6:51 PM UTC

bittercynic wrote: post #311

backpocket wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in our pursuit of equality, men are now between a rock and a hard place: treat women equally, but not too equally; treat them differently, but not too differently - or you will be discriminating. "Please discriminate: just very, very carefully and very, very skillfully."

In my experience (as a man) all you have to do is treat people with respect and you'll be fine. There are occasionally times when I enter a room where a woman was alone and I can see that my mere presence is making her very uncomfortable and she feels that she can't say/do anything. At those times I quickly excuse myself with a quick "Hello, goodbye" or something. This really doesn't seem like such a tricky issue if…

This assumes you have the social skills and awareness of your surroundings to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable.

I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. I'm barely aware there are other people in the room.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#318

Post by bsder » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

bittercynic wrote: post #305

labster wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already know. If you have a hiring choice between a theoretically equal woman and an equal man, you'll probably want to select the man because you'd feel safe to interact with him socially. You won't because it's Wrong, but what about all of the little decisions you don'…

I think it is pretty safe for a man to socialize with men and women at work, but you have to recognize signals that a person doesn't want to talk to you and find a gracious way to deal with that. If an adult is unable to recognize those basic signals, what training options are available to get up-to-speed?

> I think it is pretty safe for a man to socialize with men and women at work, but you have to recognize signals that a person doesn't want to talk to you and find a gracious way to deal with that.

Really? Recognize the signals in the single most ambiguous pursuit in human nature?

Unless you're Brad Pitt, some women will find advances unwanted. Others will welcome them. One cannot differentiate that until after having made the, possibly unwanted, advance.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#319

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

ownagefool wrote: post #307

stcredzero wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about it another way, if a girl asked you out and you didn't want to go out with her, what would you do? I'd give a straight-forward answer to a fellow adult, assuming she or he will take it in a rational and mature fashion. I certainly wouldn't say anything that could be confused on the surface with, "I would, but I can't."

Cool. You've now crippled the a girls self-esteem, where as using the nice way would give her the ability to lie to herself whilst making sure to never ask again.

You've now crippled the a girls self-esteem

I find this weirdly Victorian. I should treat grown women as fragile flowers that can't take a straight answer?

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#320

Post by cb18 » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

grahamburger wrote: post #268

There is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope that I can make sure that I'm not part of the problem. As such I make a concerted effort to give anyone that works for me equal opportunities for advancement, and when in doubt I try to err on the side of the person who's in a marginalized class. I also try to…

There are just too many ambiguities in what is considered sexual harassment

Just as there are many ambiguities in what exactly constitutes a 'marginalized class,' which makes your intentionally giving special treatment to certain groups problematic.

I recognize that my position may keep me from being part of the problem but also prevents me from being a part of the solution because I won't be aware of problems or able to offer meaningful support. I'm not sure what else to do.

These are the truly negative and pernicious effects of outrage culture, and what is actually deserving of condemnation. It marginalizes thoughtful individuals such as yourself. Who feel they must constantly walk on eggshells, lest they be accosted by a twitter mob.

Yes individual instances of shitty behavior obviously need to be dealt with appropriately. But painting with hugely broad brushstrokes and marginalizing all men, or all white people, or whoever, as is done in this constant stream of 'think' pieces is terrible for our society.

Not to say there isn't some truth in some of these issues. But another negative effect of these panics, is that people get the message that it is better to err on the side of interpreting themselves as being a victim rather than not. So this constant media bombardment of this sort of thing actually is making whatever problem may be there worse.