For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare • Hacker News Board

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#181

Post by tome » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 3:30 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #156

vkou wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she really wanted to see the movie with you, but she actually had to take her dog to the dentist, she would have counter-offered a time and date. She was trying to brush you off, hoping you'd take the hint, without appearing confrontational. It obviously didn't work. You continued with the unwanted advances, and it made her uncomfortable.

I actually ended up asking her what was going on, specifically, "Am I bad at taking hints?" At that point, I should think a simple yes would have done fine. Making someone feel like a rapist for believing what is said or failing to correctly second guess is just weird and oppressive in itself.

> Making someone feel like a rapist for believing what is said or failing to correctly second guess is just weird and oppressive in itself.

It is unfortunate and I sympathise with your hurt feelings, but I think this is just something you should take on the chin.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#182

Post by masklinn » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 3:31 PM UTC

ssharp wrote: post #127

masklinn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not a hr reprimand. Not to mention chance as good that the victim will get reprimanded as the culprit. HR's purpose, whether it's in universities or in private companies, is to protect the employer. That's who pays their bills and that's who gives the orders. If a complaint makes the employer look bad and the easiest way to make it go away is to sink the victim, that's exactly what HR will do. The only department l…

It's not useful comparing Universities and private companies in these cases. In the United States, Universities behavior on discrimination and harassment is subject to Title IX and the government can investigate and audit how a University handles and performs in these areas. The view that HR is only their to protect the employer is a dubious or nebulous, maybe both. The function HR plays will vary by organization, bu…

> In the United States, Universities behavior on discrimination and harassment is subject to Title IX and the government can investigate and audit how a University handles and performs in these areas.

That's a purely theoretical point, as numerous revelations in the last few months/years have proven Title IX to be mostly toothless and at best implemented to the letter rather than the spirit.

> The view that HR is only their to protect the employer is a dubious or nebulous, maybe both.

That HR's job is to protect the employer is neither dubious nor nebulous.

> The function HR plays will vary by organization, but even with the cynical view that they only exist to protect the organization, protecting the organization also means protecting the organization from lawsuits, government sanctions, etc. from improper and illegal behavior.

Of course it does, but as I mentioned HR will tend to do that the simplest and most expedient way possible, silencing the complainer is a common way to do it. Employees and victims should not generally assume HR is their friend or on their side. HR may side with them, but that's a very different thing than being on their side.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#183

Post by yorwba » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #162

goodcanadian wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said she hadn't experienced sexual harassment. You are correct that the bullying constituted harassment. I was not trying to say that it doesn't exist; I was just trying to offer my thoughts on the article. The title says, "For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare." I have worked in Astronomy my entire career, but I have not seen it at all (perhaps, because I am male). My wife works in a di…

My point is that the harassment your wife has experienced may in fact be sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is not limited to harassment of a sexual nature. If the harassment was because she is a woman, that falls under sexual harassment as well: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

Although the site you linked is titled "Sexual Harassment", it appears to me to be talking about harassment in general

> Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Even if I am misreading this, I would rather call it "sexist harassment" to make clear that is not itself of a sexual nature.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#184

Post by kefka » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #103

mooseburger wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snark aside, I just wonder why I don't know any men like that in my personal life. The problem seems quite widespread after all.

Is it possible that you do know them, but don't know who they are? After all, if you're a guy, you'll never be the target of harassment - and if they do most of their harassing one-on-one, you may ever witness it, either.

I'm a guy and have been subject to sexual harassment.

Now, I'm also bisexual, and I get that people want to be forward. It's called a mating signal for a reason, and that area is fraught with misunderstandings on both sides.

Well, I went in to a bar with my wife and a guy friend (of both of us). He's gay. We tried a relationship with him prior, but distance/timing meant it wouldnt. So, we were up visiting and going to an event, and he was the one showing us around town. Sooo, we walk in the bar, and it's a gay bar. No biggie. And then my friend starts showing me off like I'm his.... It took me a few moments to understand what was going on. And then I had upwards of 3 drinks offered in quick succession. One guy put his arms around my shoulders, while another grabbed my ass. It was a gay bar tending for what's called "Bears" (I'm also 6'5")... but there was some sort of soft-core underwear porn of skinny guys on huge monitors.

It was probably one of my worse experiences. And if anything, it was indicative of what women more routinely go through.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#185

Post by zimbu668 » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 3:34 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #40

What's the legal jurisdiction of the ISS? Is it split by country of origin of the separate modules? On a more comical note, I wonder if "worldwide copyright" applies after escaping the worlds atmosphere...

My brother-in-law worked for Fox's online division at one point, his contract had a clause with wording like "Employee agrees that this contract is legal and binding throughout the entire universe."

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#186

Post by wfo » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 3:36 PM UTC

woodman wrote: post #133

wfo wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the sort of thinking that gets abusive people who commit crimes public criminal records (or at least records of a series of accusations) instead of slaps on the wrist which forever remain private so they can continue their abuse. The other alternative, calling in University-owned mediators who have no incentive to help you and every incentive to "just make it go away" will almost certainly not improve your situa…

> ...people who commit crimes... While sexual harassment is terrible, it isn't a crime. There are a lot of terrible things that aren't crimes. A push to criminalize it would have the opposite effect of what the proponents desire: the definition would be severely narrowed and companies would likely have a lot less exposure to litigation.

Actually, fortunately you are incorrect here. While certain kinds of sexual harassment are not criminal, groping is certainly a crime.

I'm pretty sure threatening to destroy someone's career to force sex is a crime. If you succeed, it's rape which is quite a serious crime.

Even if you just file a report, it's important to establish a pattern of abuse for when the person inevitably crosses the line and goes to court. This is far more serious than chicken nuggets; the fact that people are willing to liken it to something like that is very troubling and indicative of how deep the problem runs: many people don't even see it as a problem.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#187

Post by ainiriand » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 3:36 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #144

ainiriand wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The view that you, as an individual, bring to the world, is exactly what makes the world the way it is. That's why a shirt is a reflection of a reality. Now it is a shirt, tomorrow it is a perfume advertising image. The next day it is a man who thinks that the woman he is married to is his belonging.

That's actually the view academics such as philosopher Martha Nussbaum bring to the world. See their definition of objectification here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions As you can see, doesn't apply. A static t-shirt image of any sort is always an object but never objectification, because it lacks the context it would need to be more. Objectification was never about naked Vs. clothed. It was…

Sexual objectification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_objectification#Sexual_...

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#188

Post by driverdan » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 3:36 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #42

sqldba wrote: post #4

It sounds terrible. And yet working in he unrelated field of IT I haven't seen it. I have seen a bunch of assholes in high positions though and have to put up with their idiotic demands and abuse. So when I read these articles I wonder if it's the same people and how they translate treating male workers like garbage into treating female workers like garbage. It's not misogyny; it's welcome to the workforce and dealin…

if your bosses are groping you sexually, then they are sexual harassers, it doesn't matter what gender you are. If by "their idiotic demands and abuse", it's asking you on dates / groping you / etc., I wouldn't really classify that as "welcome to the workforce", it's harassment.

That's not harassment, that's assault.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#189

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #131

ceejayoz wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Objectification doesn't really apply to a still image. What the what? Care to elaborate on how that works?

> Care to elaborate on how that works? A fully clothed women in a still image still has no personality, no interactions, no lines, no inherent character. A still image is within itself a prop or an object. So criticising a still image for objectifying women is inherently both true but also completely redundant. Everything in a still image is static, it is an object, plants, animals, women, men, naked, fully clothed,…

There is a problem with only thinking logically about such issues. Humans are messy and not entirely rational creatures. We're constantly seeking dominance over one another and weird emotional games come into this. No one wants to be reduced to an emblem. No one wants to be subject to a stereotype, even a positive one. In the end, we all want to be genuinely related to as people.

Strong signals of dominance, emotion, and sexuality should be experienced consensually. The reason why the "bro" stereotype is so annoying, is the apparent insistence on the others around them to feel or act a certain way. The reason why politics and political discussions are so unpleasant is that dominance instincts are brought to the fore by necessity.

I think a truly consensual society should be without the feeling of witch-hunts. I'm not sure if that's possible for human beings, though. Maybe Mao was right, and "All power comes from the end of a gun." In the end it's all the hegemony of one "tribe" over another.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#190

Post by ainiriand » Mon, Apr 18, 2016, 3:43 PM UTC

mooseburger wrote: post #69

mooseburger wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dick jokes in the workplace are ok. Serious question, why wouldn't they be?

So long as the joke isn't putting down someone (could be bullying), any joke is ok IMO.

I agree with you when you say that any joke is ok. When you choose the right environment it is ok to make a funeral joke, but not in you grandpa's funeral, you see where I'm going? You can not make jokes about different sexes in your workplace. You have to draw this line. It is very innapropriate. (This is said by a particular who believes that the only line in humour should be traced by oneself)