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For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

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131–140 of 402 posts

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Objectification doesn't really apply to a still image. The whole trope was initially about women in media being the object of the male character's conquest. Essentially the women were turned into nothing more than props. A t-shirt depicting scantily clad women may be in poor taste and likely isn't professional, but doesn't really contribute to the objectification of women. Women are allowed to be sexualised (just as…

> Objectification doesn't really apply to a still image. What the what? Care to elaborate on how that works?

> Care to elaborate on how that works?

A fully clothed women in a still image still has no personality, no interactions, no lines, no inherent character. A still image is within itself a prop or an object.

So criticising a still image for objectifying women is inherently both true but also completely redundant. Everything in a still image is static, it is an object, plants, animals, women, men, naked, fully clothed, they're all objects.

The term "objectifying women" (as a negative) originated from turning women into objects or props in situations where they wouldn't otherwise be so. So for example, you take a female character, you remove all of her lines, put her in sexy clothing, then have the male characters stand around and talk about how sexy she is. That's objectification, they've literally turned that women into an object or prop for male character's use.

Calling all sexual images of women "objectification" is simply an overreach. It also doesn't make rational sense when applied to women who couldn't have dialog, personalities, or interactions such as a still image on a t-shirt. It is pretty hard to have ANY women or man on a t-shirt who isn't an object.

You can call it "distasteful" (likely true) or "inappropriate" (again, likely true for work) but you didn't, you called it objectification which it objectively is not.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#132

Ask Women: What counts as sexual harassment? Is it "Let's go out this weekend?" or is it a comment about body parts below the neck, or is it physical?

Sexual harassment is harassment. I don't mean to sound trite, but it's literally true. Politely asking a peer out on a date, ONCE, is not harassment. Even though it might be a little uncomfortable in the moment, that can pass if everyone acts professionally regardless of the outcome. Examples of harassment include: - asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no" - propositioning someone fo…

- asking someone out on dates repeatedly, even if they've already said "no"

There's some kind of weird disconnect in our society here. I've been in the position where I've asked a colleague out to a movie, but she gave a plausible sounding excuse each time. I stopped asking when she finally definitely said "no," but she did so with language that made me feel like she thought me a rapist. No means no, but white lies should not be held equivalent to "no."

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#133
post #119
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the sort of thinking that leads to people calling 911 for disputes relating to McNuggets. Calling in armed mediators is not likely to improve your situation.

It's the sort of thinking that gets abusive people who commit crimes public criminal records (or at least records of a series of accusations) instead of slaps on the wrist which forever remain private so they can continue their abuse. The other alternative, calling in University-owned mediators who have no incentive to help you and every incentive to "just make it go away" will almost certainly not improve your situa…

> ...people who commit crimes...

While sexual harassment is terrible, it isn't a crime. There are a lot of terrible things that aren't crimes. A push to criminalize it would have the opposite effect of what the proponents desire: the definition would be severely narrowed and companies would likely have a lot less exposure to litigation.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#134
I investigated Vice for over six months for a book. Their media is so bad I regularly call it a liar's cult.

It should be stated that Vice has no fact-checking process. They also rarely issue corrections. Read everything from them with caution.

Here is an article where I fact-checked two documentaries with links to other fact checks.

https://notvice.com/fact-checking-vice-a-fiction-2d482100116...

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People exist who may seem like really great bosses and nice people but are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. It is important not to think of sexual harassment as only the skeevy creep who purposely takes advantage of women he has power over (although these people definitely exist too). Women have a right to work without being sexualized at all. Many times it is well meaning, otherwise goo…

Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?

If they're flirting with someone who they can fire, or hit with a damaging performance review? (Or an unjustly flattering one, for that matter.) Absolutely I'd tell them to knock it off. The possibility of things sometimes going right in that sort of situation isn't worth the cost.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#136
post #4

It sounds terrible. And yet working in he unrelated field of IT I haven't seen it. I have seen a bunch of assholes in high positions though and have to put up with their idiotic demands and abuse. So when I read these articles I wonder if it's the same people and how they translate treating male workers like garbage into treating female workers like garbage. It's not misogyny; it's welcome to the workforce and dealin…

I agree with a lot of the other responses, but also keep in mind that academia has a very different structure than what you're used to. Individuals tend to be less able to move around, particularly when they are grad students. That tends to give others more power over them.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#137
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nude paintings are also art, but if you hang a couple in your office, you'll have a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Really? I would fight that lawsuit tooth and nail. Neo-puritanism makes my blood boil.

That is also one kind of lawsuit where your personal assets will be on the line if you lose.

Regardless of what you think of Puritanism, don't sexualize the workplace.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#138

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring.…

Based on your description, it sounds like your wife has experienced a decent amount of harassment. (I include that extreme bullying in it.) When a number of individual assholes are allowed to continue being assholes, and you need to have a "look out for yourself attitude", that is a systemic problem. I'm genuinely curious what your wife's take is - she may see it a little differently from you.

I always wonder at what point does bullying and the like become genuine illegal harassment? I have worked with assholes who bullied and acted like children, but I dealt with it and moved on. If my wife had worked with the same person does that make the bully's actions now something that is illegal?

I've done some reading on this and it is never quite clear. It seems like if the asshole is an asshole to everyone it is fine. Only if they pick a protected class to be an asshole to does it become a problem.

Re: For Female Astronomers, Sexual Harassment Is a Constant Nightmare

#140

I must admit that I was genuinely surprised by this. I have worked in Astronomy (as a technologist) for over a decade, and I have never witnessed this sort of behaviour. Of course, I am male. There are, however, plenty of assholes in the world including in academia, and I have noticed that universities tend not to want to rock the boat, so I suppose that it is not entirely surprising that these things are occurring.…

I wonder where I can read about frank male experiences in a female-dominated field, such as nursing, or teaching elementary school.
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