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Vim 8.0 is coming

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Re: Vim 8.0 is coming

#261

Post by akkartik »

icholy wrote: post #206
llimllib wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to think it's a direct response to neovim, and that competition between them is likely to be very good

The reason neovim was started was to add these exact features. Now that vim has them, I think neovim's work is done. Mission accomplished.

Replace Neovim with Chrome, Vim with Firefox. Does your argument still stand?

Starting up a competing project has a huge cost. Once started, it's overwhelmingly better for the world for the competitors to continue[1], so that they can continue to make each other accountable.

[1] Unless one of the competitors is able to subsume the other. Like EGCS subsumed GCC back in the early 2000s. Total victory is a valid emergent outcome of competition, not somebody deciding what 'should' happen.

Re: Vim 8.0 is coming

#262

Post by zeveb »

ubertaco wrote: post #210
coldtea wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mice are not a 100% replacement for keyboards. And they're not used as such. They are used as complimentary to keyboards. On the other hand, mice-based GUIs ARE a 100% replacement for CLIs.

>On the other hand, mice-based GUIs ARE a 100% replacement for CLIs. Really? I can automate a pipeline of GUIs? Please show me how I can automatically query a database, take that output, run complex data aggregation over those results combined with past results, send that to a remote server for storage, and email myself the result of the upload, using only a combination of GUIs. (Points deducted for anything that inv…

I think he was saying that a mouse-based GUI can display a terminal window in which one can run a CLI; thus a GUI is a strict superset of a CLI.

That's true enough, although honestly I'm at a point in my computing where the G part of the GUI is pretty limited: my windows are all full-screen; the only clicking I regularly do is on links and tabs, and sometimes text (honestly, I'm trying to use the keyboard more for that though); almost all of my command execution is keyboard-driven (there's a reason man developed language rather than pointing and grunting).

Re: Vim 8.0 is coming

#263

Post by AnonymousPlanet »

eitland wrote: post #178
AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about superficial usage like that. I'm talking about productivity boosts like multiline edits, line swapping, cursor jumping over blocks, and more advanced tricks. Also about where to do all those little tweaks to the configuration you need to google for or ask a coworker about to get a hold of. Those are not discoverable with any GUI.

> ... Those are not discoverable with any GUI. But kind of easy-to-guess once you have used Windows for a while. Examples (Primarily Netbeans on Windows and Linux): Alt + shift + arrow -> move line(s) up/down or (de)indent. Ctrl + shift + arrow up/down -> duplicate line up and down etc. Most of you already know I guess but I guess there are always some who didn't realize that on Windows and Linux (desktops that is) y…

> But kind of easy-to-guess once you have used Windows for a while.

Um, no. Just line swapping is different across IDEs. The same is true for other advanced editing moves. We're not merely talking about feature set Notepad or some random edit box has.

For Emacs/Vim, the time investment to get from extendable editor to, say, a C++ IDE parity is greater than it is for a dedicated IDE. Personally, I use dedicated IDEs for where they shine (Java, C++, ...) and simple but powerful editors elsewhere. I love using Emacs for writing documentation because of all the advanced features it provides for text editing. So we're probably in the same boat on this.

My point is that once you have gone beyond the initial setup and superficial use, becoming a proficient expert at the tool takes equal effort.

Re: Vim 8.0 is coming

#264

Post by tetraodonpuffer »

cies wrote: post #22
erikb wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that it is good that there is no winner. If you look at vim and emacs specifically their thinking is very different. I would say that with the best plugins, config and skills in the world you would not be able to make one as good as the other in the others corresponding strength. Each is a winner in their own regards.

I think we have 2 winners: Emacs on the "platform" (superior scripting language (elisp), better external process management, better instrumentation). Vim on the modal-editing interface: you can find it in nearly all editors (and even browsers) nowadays. A combination of the two would be awesome, correction "is" awesome: http://spacemacs.org

even without going full spacemacs you can do what I do, install evil, have it set to emacs editing by default, and set up a keybinding to go into vi editing (I use double-caps) it's awesome and really best of both worlds

This said it is exciting to see vim being updated, I use vim quite a bit if I am ssh-ing places and the more functionality the better

Re: Vim 8.0 is coming

#265

Post by protomikron »

cytzol wrote: post #245
super_mario wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the experience is so much better. The power of command line is intoxicating, and going to GUI tools files like programming with hands tied behind your back and being blindfolded.

I apologise in advance if this sounds dismissive, but: I've tried to use both Vim and Emacs and Neovim and Spacemacs, and every time my pain point is that they're designed for use on the command line rather than as an environment I can switch in and out of. I know this isn't strictly true as both editors can be run as separate applications that you don't quit for weeks, but their roots have persisted into how they're…

Short life times for vim are more a thing on remote sessions, e.g. for server configuration. I agree with you, that such a work flow is suboptimal for the general development case, so I will just describe what works for me:

Do not close vim.

I keep a main vim instance which has different buffers open. These buffers have their own history, e.g. undo-tree, etc. And keep in mind, that it takes time to get adjusted to vim, otherwise one gets overwhelmed quite quickly. E.g. I suggest to ignore windows and tabs at the beginning and get comfortable with buffers first (e.g. mostly I only use buffers).

Re: Vim 8.0 is coming

#266

Post by ultramancool »

adrianN wrote: post #251
ubertaco wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the other hand, mice-based GUIs ARE a 100% replacement for CLIs. Really? I can automate a pipeline of GUIs? Please show me how I can automatically query a database, take that output, run complex data aggregation over those results combined with past results, send that to a remote server for storage, and email myself the result of the upload, using only a combination of GUIs. (Points deducted for anything that inv…

AppleScript can do pretty complex GUI automation tasks.

Yeah, so can AutoIT or python with pywinauto... you could do it. It just wouldn't be pleasant. Might do it if you had to extract data from some proprietary GUI tool you couldn't tear open.

Re: Vim 8.0 is coming

#267

Post by mbrock »

pyre wrote: post #191
mbrock wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs is free software developed by a worldwide community. It's a culture, an ecosystem, a way of life. The same with Vim, but I'm into Emacs. I love Lisp deeply, and I think Emacs is a truly amazing piece of technology. I had to use Xcode for a project and it gave me real anxiety. Weird things would go wrong and I had no idea how to fix them. The only sources of information were these horrible unanswered support thr…

> Weird things would go wrong and I had no idea how to fix them. My experience with Emacs/Spacemacs without having significant knowledge of lisp/elisp/Emacs debugging. I want to like Emacs, but my Vim environment feels so much more "solid".

Sure, stuff can go wrong with Emacs! I don't know anything about Spacemacs... but what I mean is that Emacs invites people to learn about the system, study its source code, change it, and fix stuff—whereas Xcode is completely proprietary, so that when things don't work there is literally no way to do anything about it except ask Apple to please fix it.

Re: Vim 8.0 is coming

#268

Post by mbrock »

hellofunk wrote: post #172
mbrock wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs is free software developed by a worldwide community. It's a culture, an ecosystem, a way of life. The same with Vim, but I'm into Emacs. I love Lisp deeply, and I think Emacs is a truly amazing piece of technology. I had to use Xcode for a project and it gave me real anxiety. Weird things would go wrong and I had no idea how to fix them. The only sources of information were these horrible unanswered support thr…

>Xcode and Visual Studio are made for developing software in closed systems... Xcode allows you to write and debug code for a specific compiler (like Clang or GCC). If you choose to use Emacs instead, you would typically use the same compiler as you'd use with Xcode, just a different way of editing and debugging your code. But whether or not you write software that is "closed" or "open" or "portable" or "platform spe…

Sure, but my point is that Xcode is aimed at the development of programs for Apple's proprietary systems, while Emacs is made for the purpose of empowering free software developers, and that all of this is one reason why I personally love Emacs and strongly prefer it over proprietary IDEs.

Re: Vim 8.0 is coming

#269

Post by AnonymousPlanet »

pvinis wrote: post #4

I have vim, neovim and emacs (and spacemacs) installed. Right now I'm trying to get into emacs a bit more. What's interesting to me, and the reason I try to keep up to date with the latest changes for all four editors, is that it's been now, what, 25 years (?) since emacs and vim started "competing" and they still are. I guess we could be saying the same in 10 years about firefox and chrome, but it still is amazing i…

Judging by how this thread exploded, the discussion has shifted towards a standoff between two other groups. On one side IDE users shaking their heads at what they experience as a backward mindedness and on the other side Emacs/Vim/command-line users desperately trying to explain that there is a world beyond the IDE. There is unnecessary smugness on both sides.

Re: Vim 8.0 is coming

#270

Post by bobajeff »

benwaffle wrote: post #218
bobajeff wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I guess we could be saying the same in 10 years about firefox and chrome That's pretty optimistic considering Firefox's current marketshare. Based on its momentum I'd say in 10 years, at best, I expect it to be where Opera was before it became a Chromium fork. For now Firefox does things better than Chrome but I don't expect them to keep up when it becomes a community project. It'll be like using Opera used to be.

Hopefully servo will be merged into firefox within 10 years

I doubt that would change anything. Even after spending tons of money on marketing and making big changes to the browser, Internet Explorer never reversed it's drop from 90% to 50% marketshare.
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